The John Doe Times
22 February 1997
IN THIS ISSUE:
- ** McCARTHY ENTERS PLEA BARGAIN
- ** J.D. CASH ON RADIO FREE OKC
- ** JO THOMAS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES WRITES SOMETHING.
"I fear the Cologne Gazette more than ten thousand bayonets."
Over heard at the White House: "Where in the hell is Idabell, Oklahoma?"
The John Doe Times is an on-line, electronic newsletter published by
the 1st Alabama Cavalry Regiment (Constitutional Militia) and friends.
We are a proud and active member of the "Right Wing Media Cabal",
Internet Division and we are working our way up the Clinton White House
Enemies List as fast as we can. We're in a hurry just now, so we'll skip
the rest except our motto, which is Sic Semper Rodentia.
Midwest Informer Pleads Guilty
PHILADELPHIA (AP) - A white supremacist who helped convict two others
of robbing banks throughout the Midwest pleaded guilty Friday to robbing
a Missouri bank and helping plan five other robberies.
Kevin McCarthy, 19, of Philadelphia, has been cooperating with prosecutors
for six months in the cases of four men identified by authorities as part
of a white supremacist gang that robbed 22 banks throughout the Midwest.
Under a plea agreement, McCarthy automatically faces a reduced sentence
and could have his prison time lessened further depending on the extent
of his cooperation. He could have been sentenced up to 35 years had he
been convicted at trial.
Testimony from McCarthy helped convict Scott Stedeford, 28, of Ardmore,
who was sentenced in Iowa last week to nearly 10 years in prison after
being convicted of robbing a bank in West Des Moines.
McCarthy also testified against gang leader Peter Langan, 38, of Columbus,
Ohio, who was convicted of five felony charges in two Ohio robberies.
McCarthy's guilty plea came the same week that Pennsylvania white supremacist
leader Mark Thomas agreed to cooperate with prosecutors and plead guilty
to conspiracy charges.
A grand jury said the gang members divided the proceeds among themselves,
then contributed a share to Thomas, who helped recruit gang members.
RAY BRIEM INTERVIEWS J.D. CASH ON
"THE SPY WHO CAME IN FROM THE COLD"
(Note from the Editor of the John Doe Times: Many thanks to Wayne Mann
who transcribed this article and to Ada Coddington for forwarding it to
me. -- Mike Vanderboegh.)
THE POLITICAL DIGEST
"THE Internet Clipping Service"
Arroyo Grande, Ca. 93420
Vol 3-SPECIAL S-11
2/19/97 **OKC BOMBING INFORMANT **
RAY BRIEM radio * KIEV, 870AM, Glendale, CA. with guest J.D. CASH who
wrote 'THE SPY WHO CAME IN FROM THE COLD' published in the McCurtain Daily
Gazette on 02/11/97.
R: Ray Briem
C: J.D. Cash
Ray's introduction: A lot of news coming out of OKC nowadays regarding
the bombing of the Murrah Bldg & the upcoming trial of Timothy McVeigh.
What if I were to tell you that there seems to be a lot of DOCUMENTATION
that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms (ATF) had been WARNED
by a PAID INFILTRATOR? Would that do something for you?
Well, during a series of clandestine interviews a woman by the name
of CAROL HOWE told the McCurtain Daily Gazette that the ATF knew as far
back as the FALL of 1994 that the Murrah Federal bldg & 2 other Federal
bldg's were targeted for destruction by resident's of and frequent visitors
to an Eastern Oklahoma religious cult known as ELOHIM CITY, part a an ARYAN
We join J.D. Cash in Idabel, OK.
I checked on the map & my atlas says that Idabel, OK is 7,500 people.
C: We're in the furthest S.E. part of OK. In fact my home is in the
flight path of MENA.
R: Oh no! Not that! Not that! [laughter]
C: We're awfully close to the center of all sorts of activities, but
our paper has been dedicated to following the bombing ever since the tragedy
R: Why hasn't the story of Carol Howe made the AP wire service??
C: I was talking to the fellow at the AP in OKC today. They're all strung
out on this. We have been writing about the activities involving Elohim
City and their obvious links to the bombing now for a YEAR and they have
continued to keep those stories OFF. If we write a story about TIM McVEIGH
being involved with bank robberies, they put that on the wire. This has
become something very sensitive to them and STILL as of 3:00pm this afternoon,
they had NOT PUT THIS story on the wire.
R: Isn't that something... you have to read the LONDON SUNDAY TELEGRAPH
to get an inkling of what's going on - that's AMBROSE EVANS-PRITCHARD.
C: There are people in London who know more about the OKC bombing than
the people in OKC do. All over the country people are picking up on the
obvious unusual things that are going on in this case.
R: Tell me how you got in touch with CAROL HOWE.
C: I was looking for people who had lived at Elohim City, which is a
religious cult, that prior to the bombing had lived there, but have since
left. I felt like they'd be more likely to talk. So I was given her name
in early December by an important member of the movement. By the time I
got to talk to her the FBI had RAIDED her home and arrested her boyfriend.
We started meeting - I think our 1st phone call was Christmas eve -
and then we began meeting, having regular conversations over the phone.
About the 3rd interview was when she finally explained to me that she WORKED
for BATF prior to the bombing & afterwards.
R: She had infiltrated members of the radical underground known as the
ARYAN REPUBLICAN ARMY, correct?
C: That's correct. People may have started picking up some stories about
these 22 BANK ROBBERIES that occurred in the Mid-west. Most of them before
the bombing & 7 or 8 of them after.
R: Where is this Elohim City?
C: It's near FORT SMITH, Ark. right on the OK/Ark border due east of
OKC about 220 miles.
R: Was this infiltration something that was HER idea? And she had a
Special Agent who you named as her HANDLER, ANGELA FINLEY of the Tulsa
office of the ATF. Carol was a PAID informant & she wrote reports.
C: That's correct. Carol provided them with a HUGE amount of intelligence
on the goings on in Elohim City. She was APPROACHED by Ms. Finley after
she had sought a PROTECTIVE order from the courts against DENNIS MAHON
who was the # 3 guy in the White Aryan Resistance - TOM METZGER, out there
in Calif. is the leader - and Metzger's son is # 2, so that tells you the
position of Dennis. Dennis is a Tulsa resident who kept a travel trailer
at Elohim City before and after the bombing. He is BANNED from traveling
in GERMANY, CANADA & is considered an INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST.
R: What about this German National ANDREAS CARL STRASSMEIR?
C: After Carol was recruited, the BATF noticed in the court filings
against MAHON, who has always been a TARGET for the ATF, they sought Carol
out, put her on the payroll, she signed a contract with them...
R: Have you seen these documents?
C: I have seen a SUBSTANTIAL number of documents that relate to this.
The Justice Dept has confirmed that Carol Howe WAS their EMPLOYEE at Elohim
City, working these individuals. It's all been CONFIRMED.
R: Why aren't we learning about the fact that there was ADVANCED WARNING
to the Tulsa office and the ATF?
C: To give you an example, the individual who's working on this for
the AP in OKC says, 'Well, the ATF is now saying OFF THE RECORD that she
DIDN'T provide good enough info in her reports for them to have known AHEAD
of time. Well, if anyone happened to catch the Feb. 17th "20/20"
ABC ran a piece on the BOMB SQUADS being present on the grounds of the
OCK bldg. prior to the bombing... that there was plenty of evidence of
a STING operation that had gone SOUR. That's what all of this is about...
is the intelligence data that Carol was providing and that we think that
also this ANDREAS STRASSMEIR, the German that you mentioned, he's CLEARLY
an intelligence operative and we believe for the ATF. That's our information.
The STEPHEN JONES people have obtained quite a bit of info on Strassmeir
lately in regards to his applications for Govt. work when he came to this
Now, what's really INTERESTING about Strassmeir is that his FATHER--Strassmeir
is supposedly OFF the German payroll--if he is off, it's before he came
to this country in 1989. He's a German officer. He was a liaison to the
Welsh guards. He has a strong intelligence background, a high ranking guy.
His father recently retired as Berlin's State Secretary, a close confidant
to Helmut Kohl. Andreas Strassmeir's UNCLE is still in the Parliament.
His father had served for 20 years. By the way, his father is listed in
Berlin as one of the Father's of the German Re-unification who actually
put all of this stuff together to bring the WALL down and so forth. His
Dad was a former Chief of Staff to Helmut Kohl - a very, very important,
R: You say in your story that, "The Gazette has learned that Howe's
detailed information concerning the bombing conspiracy at Elohim City is
contained in monthly reports the Tulsa office of the BATF had accumulated
prior to the bombing of the federal building.
Contained within those reports is clear and concise intelligence data
spelling out Mahon's and Strassmeir's alleged statements about their plans
to bomb federal installations and activities involving, among other things,
the physical surveillance of the Murrah Federal Building during the months
preceding the April 19, 1995 bombing.
Her reports reflect that Strassmeir and Mahon made three trips to Oklahoma
City to inspect the federal building, in November and December of 1994
and in February, 1995.
Furthermore, and potentially lethal to any attempt to discredit her,
Howe was routinely polygraphed by the government during the time she was
making her monthly reports to the BATF." ... Amazing!
C: It's all in there. ABC, NBC have worked diligently on this. Mike
Boettcher jumped the story about ten days ago and got into the Carol Howe
story. But clearly, she was going to meetings in November and one in particular
that was very important where Strassmeir and Mahon stood up and said, "It's
time to quit talking. It's time to go to war. We're going to start bombing
Federal installations." They named 3 targets that they were going
to work on - 2 Federal bldgs in Tulsa and, of course, the Murrah bldg in
OKC and later she reported that they had been CASING the Murrah bldg. She
referred to it in her report as the OKC Federal Bldg., but we only have
one federal bldg which is the Murrah bldg.
Immediately in the wake of the bombing she is contacted within hours
and taken to a COMMAND POST near the Murrah bldg in the BASEMENT of an
office bldg that the ATF & the FBI are working out of and she's DEBRIEFED
over a period of several days off and on. In those debriefings which STEPHEN
JONES, the attorney for McVeigh, has now obtained evidence of with the
ATF/FBI documents, she reiterated the fact that she had told them that
these guys had been casing the Murrah bldg. They showed her a picture of
John Doe II and they said, 'Do you know who this is?'. It's in her report,
she said, 'No one in the world looks more like that than MICHAEL BRESCIA.'
Michael Brescia is an individual who was recently indicted and arrested
as part of this Aryan Republican Army. He was locked up just a few weeks
ago in Philadelphia and faces charges for bank robbery. MB, we have been
writing about for a YEAR.
R: But the FBI says that they now believe that there was NO John Doe
C: Then yesterday if you happened to catch the National news & it
was a big thing in OKC, suddenly Mr. Kessinger - they put him on the stand
- says, 'No, no! There IS a John Doe II!'
This is what reporters are coming to learn about the JUSTICE DEPT's
position in OKC. It's a FIASCO!
R: According to Carol Howe, McVeigh called Elohim City two weeks before
the bombing and left a message for Strassmeir...
C: That's actually in the PHONE RECORDS that we have. She wasn't aware
of that call but what she told me in December - and it's very IMPORTANT
to note this - her December REPORTS are MISSING. They haven't been turned
over to the DEFENSE. It reminds me of the ROSEMARY WOODS - the 22 minute
R: It reminds me of the BILLING records showing up in the personal quarters
of the WH.
C: And as of this afternoon I understand those records are STILL being
withheld from Steven Jones, but surely they'll turn up.
But in December she said that she saw Tim McVeigh go through the compound
with MICHAEL FORTIER, the other fellow in the bombing investigation. She
ONLY knew Tim McVeigh as TIM TUTTLE. She heard his name mentioned several
times LATER. She only knew Fortier by his alias, FOUNTAIN, who she also
heard the guys mention his name several times. She was shown a PICTURE--and
this is where you get into the SCREWY part of this--she was shown a picture
of T.McVeigh on April 21st. He had been identified as a suspect and she
was asked, 'Do you know this guy Timothy McVeigh?" She said, 'No.'
This was in her ATF report on April 21st. She told me in our interviews...
she said, 'show me a picture of McVeigh with his HAIR at the length that
he's wearing it now.' Which is LONGER than the BUZZ cut that he had when
he was arrested. She goes, 'I didn't place that face with that NAME, McVEIGH,
but I will assure he was there in December.' She asked to see a picture
of Fortier and she said, 'He was there with that guy in December before
Well, we know that McVeigh and Fortier came through Oklahoma at the
time that she says they did, so it matches up with what we've learned.
We've had several people say that State law enforcement says that McV visited
Elihoem City on 12 to 20 occasions before the bombing.
R: Howe says that there's indisputable truth that the Govt had DETAILED,
PRIOR knowledge of the PLOT to bomb the bldg., but somehow FAILED to stop
it. You wrote that. Why do you think that is?
C: Right. # 1 she told them that these guys were plotting to bomb the
OCK bldg along the possibility of the 2 Tulsa bldg's. She told them they
were actually CASING the OKC Fed. bldg. In retrospect, she said if you
look at the "20/20" piece, which she reviewed, and that's when
she OPENED up to us after I told her to watch that program. She said it
all makes sense to me now why there were bomb squads down there... they
had everything they needed and certainly by the 21st when she told them
in her reports about all of this stuff... keep in mind that she's been
POLYGRAPHED FOURTEEN (14) times in the course of her work for the ATF...
really, it all added up to her. That's why the bomb squads were there.
She doesn't know anything about Strassmeir's work for German intelligence.
She was led to believe that he was just another radical out there. She
was constantly reporting on Strassmeir's activities.
R: Is she CONCERNED about her SAFETY now?
C: She is now in HIDING. She comes from one of Tulsa's wealthiest families
and she's living in complete--she's gone underground. There's no doubt
that they were and have been closely watching her.
R: 'They' meaning...
C: The authorities. That's in the article. One of the things that we
DIDN'T put in the story was that she was receiving FAXES from a guy who
represented himself as being a part of this movement, while I'm meeting
with her. We ran a trace on that fax which went to an apartment--this person
is purposing illegal acts--the trace showed a name that doesn't seem to
exist and then we went back behind that to see who was actually PAYING
for that telephone line -- it was a WELL KNOWN FBI INFORMANT who just did
a BOMBING STING in October here in Oklahoma. So, they are really trying
to DESTROY the girl, literally and keep it all COVERED UP.
Her reports had been hidden and until we found her, they had not been
turned over to Stephen Jones. He had confronted the Prosecution in closed
chambers with the Judge who saw what was going on and the Judge ORDERED
them to produce the stuff, and it was just incredible.
R: Tell me about the circulation of the McCurtain Daily Gazette.
C: I think it's about 13,000. We're a small Daily. It's an old, old
newspaper. We normally win the brunt of awards in our category, but we're
not a Daily Oklahoman or Tulsa World or the LA Times.
R: Was the Daily Gazette somewhat apprehensive in running this story?
C: At this point, no. We've run a lot of controversial stories about
the OKC bombing.
R: And yet the AP has YET to pick it up. It's only the London Sunday
Telegraph and Ambrose Evans-Pritchard...
C: Oh, TIME MAGAZINE ran a piece TODAY and picked up on it, but they
put the GOVERNMENT SPIN on it. It said that Ms. Howe--I talked to the reporter
extensively. He's a good guy but these things get REWRITTEN once you TURN
THEM IN. But it does go into the info about Howe's working for the ATF
- and the Govt story on this is, 'Well, we had to FIRE her; she wasn't
reliable.' That wasn't true at all.
R: You have the polygraph tests.
C: Yes, she has 14 polygraphs in this deal and immediately after the
bombing they UP her pay to $400.00 per day to go back to Elohim City. That
doesn't tell me that she's been fired and it certainly doesn't tell me
that they don't think that her info is solid.
[He'll take calls from listeners now.]
R: We're speaking with J.D. Cash of Idabel, Oklahoma who's story has
yet to make it to the LA TIMES, WASHINGTON POST, NEW YORK TIMES or even
the ASSOCIATED PRESS. Does that tell you something about where we are in
our news media today?? Wheuwweee.... But we read about it in the London
Sunday Telegraph, giving credit to Ambrose Evans-Pritchard who does such
a great job.
Caller 1 (Zan): Mr. Cash, you should have a Pulitzer.
C: Well, let's see how this thing washes out, but thank you so much.
(Zan): It seems like the trial may not be the method to get out the
truth because the Govt. has one lie to protect and Mr. Jones has his client
to get off the hook. How can Jones go into all the facts about this without
incriminating his client?
C: In that you've really captured the ESSENCE of this whole problem.
Clearly there needs to be a Congressional investigation of what the ATF
knew, what the FBI knew prior to and after the bombing. Mr. Jone's responsibility
is to provide the best defense possible for his client. He has been very
vocal about the issue involving Mr. Strassmeir-- Why wasn't Strassmeir
interviewed? Why was he allowed to escape to Germany BUT was allowed to
stay in this country for fully 9 months after the bombing WITHOUT being
INTERVIEWED? Now we have the 'smoking gun' with the Howe reports where
she is saying that he was actually CASING the bldg, promoting the bombing.
WHO IS Strassmeir... WHO is he WORKING FOR?
(Zan): He's certainly not the type of person who would naturally gravitate
to some 'red neck' religious group...
C: I think you're right on top of this. Clearly to us, he doesn't fit
in. If his father thought that he was legitimately hanging out with some
NEO-NAZI's, they would have sent a TEAM of people over here, picked that
kid up, and taken him back to Germany for psychiatric care and removed
him from that situation. It's TOO EMBARRASSING for Germany.
(Zan): Do you think there was any Moslem, Iraqi, or Phillipean influence
and if the Elohim people did it, what about the theory that there were
bombs planted INSIDE the bldg... Could they have done that?
C: As to the connections to the Iraqi's... that's been SPECULATED on
at length. The Aryan Republican Army, which is a group that McVeigh was
deeply involved with, was robbing banks in this country. That's how we
think they were financing their activities. Several of them have been arrested
- there are some good stories on the Net that you can pick up from the
COLUMBUS DISPATCH and PHILADELPHIA ENQUIRER about the on-going trials for
these people. We wrote a story that DID make the WIRE a couple of weeks
ago where Tim McVeigh's SISTER, JENNIFER, told the FBI in a MAY 2nd affidavit
that her brother gave her some money from a recent bank robbery that he
said he helped plan and she laundered it and gave him some CLEAN money.
It discusses with the FBI at length the fact that he had told her that
he was a part of wide-ranging group that was trying to start a REVOLUTION
in this country.
For those of you who like to pick up stuff on the NET, there's a sight
called the JOHN DOE TIMES and it would be easier for me to give you the
fellow's name & phone number who operates that Web sight than it would
be for me to give the call letters. But if someone wants the info they
can call MIKE VANDERBOEGH during the day at 205-XXX-XXXX. He is putting
stories from around the country up every day from the major newspapers.
R: Have you been working closely with Rep. CHARLES KEYS on any of these
C: I have met with Keys on a number of occasions. Today they had a huge
VICTORY; the Supreme Court of the State of Oklahoma ruled that Charles
Key and Glenn Wilburn, the grandfather who lost his grandchildren, have
the RIGHT & the PRIVILEGE to circulate a PETITION in OK county to form
a GRAND JURY to investigate this bombing. [Yes!!!]
You'll find that in OKC the 'rank & file' know that there is more
to this than they're being told. That McVeigh & Terry Nichols are NOT
alone in this conspiracy. Certainly there's enough people who have heard
from eyewitness accounts about the BOMB SQUAD being out there that morning...
that there are a lot of questions that have to be answered that are not
R: I interviewed state Rep. Charles Keys last Friday. He's a great politician
because a lot of politicians don't want to stick their necks out.
C: Right. He's getting LAMBASTED by the OKC MEDIA because he says there's
more to this and we need to have a Country grand jury.
R: Can people listening now get a copy of your story?
C: If you'll get a hold of that Web sight info, it's all on there plus
most of the stories from the beginning.
Also, let me mention... has your NBC NIGHTLY NEWS come on yet? MIKE
BOETTCHER is a friend of mine and he's got a story TONIGHT that TIES part
of this ARYAN REPUBLICAN ARMY to the Elohim City crowd.
There was a SHOOT-OUT in OHIO over the weekend. One of the suspects
in the shoot-out--it was quite a dramatic shoot-out & they'll show
the film from it caught on the Highway patrolman's car--these two individuals
are LOOSE; one of them is from Elohim City. He's linked to a MURDER that
links back to the OKC bombing, and it's quite a story.
[NOTE: I believe that's a reference to the Mueller family, mother, father
and their daughter who were murdered in Arkansas. They could identify Andreas
Strassmeir and Michael Brescia. They disappeared in January 1996. Their
bodies were found in June 1996 in a swamp. They had plastic bags over their
heads bound in place with duct tape -- ed.]
R: Is Elohim City a Town?
C: No, it's a RELIGIOUS CULT on 1,000 acres. Elohim is Hebrew for God's
City. These folks believe that they are the true descendants of the 'lost
tribes'. That the Jews are impostors; that the Black's are 'mud people'
and so on and so forth....
R: [disgustingly] Oh boy!
C: They are DEADLY SERIOUS about arming themselves to the teeth. This
is where these characters, Strassmeir & Brescia and the Aryan Republican
Army operated from. Several of them live there.
WHY this place is open today and hasn't been raided is beyond me.
Caller 2: Is it true that several ATF employees were told via pagers
in advance of the bombing.. 'do not come into the office' because the office
received an advanced warning of the bombing?
C: According to 2 very important & credible witness's, YES.
Caller 2: I heard a report that the OKC fire dept received some kind
of instructions in advance of the bombing and that there was a threat to
the bldg and 'be prepared'.
C: Yes, in fact Mr. WILBURN is who is responsible for tracking that
down. We reported it probably a YEAR ago that on APRIL 14th the OKC fire
dept. received info from an FBI agent and they were put on alert to expect
terrorists activities in the near future. This was disseminated through
the DISPATCHERS. Everybody in the Dispatch office knew about it and there's
NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.
Caller 2: This seems to be the real story in the COVER-UP by the GOVT.
and it's NEGLIGENCE. This is what should be focused upon, not McVeigh.
C: This is what makes me feel good... talking to people in California
who understand these things. Obviously they're picking up this info and
it's accurate. That's what we need to focus on... WHAT DID THEY KNOW and
WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT! DID THEY USE THIS BUILDING AS BAIT for a HIGH PROFILE
STING OPERATION?? I believe they DID.
Caller 3 (Kurt): Thank you J.D. for your courageous work in the pursuit
of the truth about what I call this HORRIFYING ACCIDENT. I don't think
it's a terrorist attack. Mr. Cash, Federal agents and Informants have been
suspiciously involved in many RECENT 'militia' arrests. There is the NY
City World Trade Center bombing where they called it a 'failed sting' -
that was publicly revealed...
C: You're exactly right.
(Kurt): I'm becoming suspicious of these 'failed stings'...
C: You sort of wonder what our CRIME RATE would be if we QUIT ENCOURAGING
people to do these things!?
(Kurt) Exactly! Some Fed. agents may be dumb but I don't think they're
stupid enough NOT to know that they should keep people from going to work
in the building that day. Do you think that this could have been possibly
a REICHSTAG type maneuver like Hitler did to engender public and Congressional
fear to allow Clinton to pass more unconstitutional 'anti-terrorism' legislation?
C: NO I really don't and God help us if that day ever comes to this
country. I think that they wanted to bust these guys in OKC and I think
they had some great plans and something went WRONG. They were DOUBLE-CROSSED,
the bombing didn't go down at night which is what they expected... they
expected to bust these guys in the middle of the night. Things changed
and there's a LONG STORY behind why I believe that, but the bottom line
is that I believe that they thought they had this thing under control and
they were DOUBLE-CROSSED.
Caller 4: First of all I'd like to 2nd the Pulitzer nomination. I sure
hope you get it. You're story sure has the ring of truth and the facts
to back it up.
With this corruption that has seeped down all through our Govt. from
the Executive branch that we currently have by the people in it, what do
you feel is the overall motivation of the MISHANDLING of events like this
and Waco, Vince Foster, and I think we could extend it that and many other
incidents that have occurredit seems like everything is a COVER-UP now.
What is your feeling on that?
C: Clearly there are so many scandals circulating around this particular
administration that I personally can't imagine that this whole thing is
not going to come apart. OKC is could PUSH THIS OVER THE EDGE. It's going
to have such an emotional impact on the American people when they learn
the truth that there is going to be hell to pay.
Caller 5: Why do you think they didn't go through with the other TWO
C: They finally settled on 1 target and this target is also one that
a former resident of Elohim City, a friend of MILLAR's, who's relatives
lived at Elohim City... was EXECUTED on this very day of the bombing a
fellow by the name of WAYNE SNELL. Wayne Snell had cased the bldg with
a group of radicals back in 1983. They were targeting this bldg because
it held so many Federal offices, you could drive right up to the front
door, it was a 'cantilevered' bldg, all glass--to a group of NUTS like
this it's a very SOFT target and highly desirable because of the large
number of Fed. agencies there.
R: There seems to be some discrepancies about the number of EXPLOSIONS.
C: Well, you know, poor old DR. BROWN after 2 years -- after 20 months,
we find out-- & I have not talked to Dr. Brown, he's a wonderful guy--that
possibly he has CHANGED his CONCLUSIONS about the SECOND BLAST. There is
no doubt in my mind that the overwhelming body of evidence from eyewitness's
and photographs that we have that something went off in that SOUTH-EAST
CORNER OF THAT BUILDING. That IS the area where there were several ARSENAL
rooms where Customs, ATF, Secret Service, DEA maintained. We have written
extensively early on about the number of witness's who saw the explosives
REMOVED. We have film of the 'remains' being removed the morning of the
bombing. There was panic everywhere about what they were finding.
That's an issue I don't go into as much as I used to because I feel
like during the trial there's a possibility that Stephen Jones will go
into this and clearly he has the experts where they could get into that
area of 'who killed who' that day.
C: Shadow, you sound interesting.
(Shadow): Well, thank you! You do too and I love your name.
C: Ok, and it is my real name.
(Shadow): I wanted to know if you had ever heard about a RUMOR, definitely
a rumor, about an on-going Federal case paperwork that was sent to the
Murrah building prior to the bombing.
C: You know there has been a lot of discussion about that. I don't know
if we'll ever be able to get to the bottom of all of the different things
we want to know the details of. That bldg was 55% STORAGE and only 45%
occupied as offices. So there's a HUGE amount of Govt. documents in that
particular bldg. that my experience - which is extensive in dealing with
Govt. over the years and working for them under contract as a 'closing'
agent and as a mortgage banker and so forth--that there's ALWAYS DUPLICATES
EVERYWHERE, except maybe at Langely. And I haven't really gotten in to
chase the stuff about 'what was really in the bldg.' was there a reason
why they wanted something done, something they were hiding there, I don't
(Shadow): But you did hear that rumor?
C: Oh yes, it's wide spread.
(Shadow): Also, had you heard about the Secret Service agent who wanted
a transfer and went to the OKC bldg but was not warned to get out of the
C: There was one of BC's personal Secret Service agents who had left
his detail and who was stationed in OKC, that's true.
(Shadow): I thank you sir.
(Break for Commercial)
R: For those who have just joined us, could you succinctly tell our
listeners what this expose is all about?
C: Basically what we've run into is, all of the evidence that we have
accumulated for this last 20 months points to the fact that the BATF was
running a 'sting' operation on the bombing group. They seemed to, from
everything we have learned, they clearly wanted to stop this but they probably
should have stopped it in Junction City where they were building the bomb,
but for some reason they decided there would be more publicity attached
to it if they would stop it in OKC that morning or that night. It's our
understanding that the sting was planned for that night-- that they thought
the truck would show up. I'm sure they thought that the explosives had
been neutralized--some plan that we're not familiar with on how they expected
to STOP this, but the [paid] ATF informant who was telling them for months
what this group was up to...
(**TRANSCRIBER NOTE: I'll skip what has already been covered in this
interview and resume transcription when he gets to new information.**)
I can't STRESS this enough... Had we NOT discovered CAROL HOWE, and
discovered the existence of these REPORTS, if Timothy McVeigh had been
convicted, found guilty in this trial... these reports are so IMPORTANT
in the VIOLATION that the JUSTICE DEPT committed in WITHHOLDING those,
would have been easily enough for the Supreme Court to seriously consider
throwing out the conviction and ordering a new trial which would have been
horrifying to the victims in OKC. Not to mention the cost of going through
this again. This is how serious this cover-up has gotten where they would
WITHHOLD something like this.
R: Is there some reason why you think the MAJOR PAPERS in OKC have NOT
picked this up?
C: They have buried themselves in this mess where the Justice Dept is
basically their only source of information. They have irritated the Defense
teams to where they won't provide them anything. It has been a PUBLIC RELATIONS
GAME in OKC as far as 'everything we did right.. there can't possibly be
anything to these stories about prior knowledge.'
April the 19th of 1997 is the CUT-OFF DATE FOR ANYONE TO SUE THE FEDERAL
GOVT. FOR A FAILURE TO WARRANT. This has the Govt. just PETRIFIED that
this info is going to go out into Oklahoma City, people are going to hire
lawyers to sue the Govt. and through CIVIL DISCOVERY EXPOSE all of what
went on down there.
R: What is the CUT-OFF DATE??
C: April 19, 1997. There is a TWO YEAR STATUTE of LIMITATION for the
victims to sue the Federal Govt.
R: So there is a MOTIVE?
C: Yes, certainly there is! They want to keep this stuff QUIET as long
as they can. And IF they pass that date, the victims have NO chance of
RECOVERY. It would take Congress to step in to say, 'Look, these people
have been royally screwed over, they deserve some compensation.' But, I'll
tell you what... WHEN the people in OKC see all of this stuff come out--and
all of it will eventually--the courts would award huge amounts of money
in punitive damages because of what has happened.
R: Not only that but I'm beginning to believe that it's going to be
another black eye for the AMERICAN PRESS.
C: Oh, the American Press in this thing have been so SLOW TO COME AROUND.
Finally, when they moved the trial to Denver, there's two good newspapers
up there that are covering this stuff and they're already beginning to
report on Carol Howe. They're not constrained by the OKC POLITICAL MACHINERY.
They don't worry about the fact that they could expose the bomb squad and
the County Commissioner's activities or Governor's activities, so they're
doing a good job in Denver.
R: Maybe one of these days even the ASSOCIATED PRESS will pick it up!!
Caller 7 (Huber): I live in OKC and the day of the bombing I was driving
down 240 when explosion occurred which at that time I didn't know what
was going on. All I want to say is KEEP up the good work! I certainly appreciate
it, and we know that there's a lot more to it than the press deals out.
C: Well, Huber, you're an OKC guy. Tell us what's the general mood in
OKC about the PROSECUTION's theory is that JUST Tim McVeigh and Nichols
Huber: I don't really know, but I know that most people I talk to think
it's a more or less cover-up job. I'm thankful that you're delving into
it and that Rep. Keys is too. The American people and the city of Oklahoma
need the truth being told, so thank you very much.
Caller 8: I have a hard time believing that this group is at the bottom
of all this. That they're naive enough to think that they could start a
revolution in this country with that one timid blow. I would think that
they'd have several incidents across the country rigged simultaneously
and then they'd strike again and again. They'd force the Govt. to bring
the military out and declare a state of emergency and then when they became
so impressive to the system that the ordinary people would go over to the
Revolutionary side. I just can't believe that they thought this one bombing
would begin a revolution.
C: I'll tell you what... I've been so impressed with the people that
listen to your program. They are just superb.
R: They're a cut above.
C: What he's talking about is right out of the TURNER DIARIES. I would
guess that he's read the Turner Diaries because that is 'the plan' and
if you recall there were some early press reports that Terry NICHOLS' X-WIFE
talks about her SON, Josh, watching the coverage of the bombing and saying,
'Mommie, there's supposed to be TWO OTHER BUILDINGS.' That could be the
other bldg's. in TULSA. When this is all over, maybe we'll find out...
I'm very curious if McVeigh didn't think that these guys were also going
to hit two other buildings that day. The ARIZONA TRAIN WRECK is another
example of how this thing is continuing... TWA could be another example...
the stuff going on with the VIPER MILITIA in Arizona, and of course they
had an INFORMANT inside that one too PROMOTING BOMBINGS and BANK ROBBERIES.
Clearly the movement is doing exactly what your caller is speculating about.
Is there supposed to be a concerted wave of terror and it just--thank God--hasn't
happened to a large degree. But that is the idea.
Caller 9: Have you seen the TV report by Bill Curtis where he interviewed
STRASSMEIR in England and also interviewed the leader of Elohim City where
the leader said he would be happy to drive an atomic bomb into Washington
C: The guy who said that is DENNIS MAHON who is the OTHER PERSON who
CAROL HOWE NAMED as a planner of the bombing.
R: When did Bill Curtis do that? Caller 9: On A & E about 4 months
ago in partnership with the BBC where they tracked Strassmeir down.
R: Why doesn't that appear in the regular news?
C: I worked with the Canadian Broadcasting Company on a piece that's
just outstanding... THE FIFTH ESTATE. The people in Canada & Europe
know more about what I consider are the FACTS.... and I'll say this...
AMBROSE EVANS-PRITCHARD is one of the most PRECISE, DETAIL ORIENTED guys.
He knows he's a TARGET and he is so careful. We worked on a couple of stories
together. He ran me through the RINGER to make sure everything, all the
documents were right, all the interviews - everything he put in his story
R: I talk with him quite regularly, but unfortunately he's only got
6 more months in the country.
C: Yeah, and I'm sure the Clinton's will be so glad... they'll probably
have a 'bon voyage' party for him.
R: He was at the top of the list of that 331-page report.
Caller 9: Like you've said, we don't hear that info here in our own
C: I'll tell you why it HASN'T happened, it's because the OKLAHOMA CITY
MEDIA HASN'T TOUCHED IT. That's EXACTLY why. If they would write about
what really happened and go out and interview the witness's, do their job
and report all of this then it would be everywhere.
R: As a member of the Fifth Estate, you must have some thoughts about
the PROFESSION you're in and where we are today.
C: Well, I'm trying to FIGURE IT OUT. Personally I've given a lot of
thought to this... WHAT'S GOING ON IN THIS COUNTRY? Are we all stupid?
Are we all lazy? Have there been too many lawsuits filed where we're afraid
to do our jobs?
I have a law degree and I completely sympathize with the problem we
have from law suits that make it really tough for us, but I just don't
I had a fellow from "20/20" tell me this morning that when
this is all over, there will be SERIOUS, SERIOUS PAPERS WRITTEN by Universities
about looking into the REPORTING on the OKC bombing.
R: When you put this classic story together, 'The Spy Who Came In From
The Cold', did you have any thoughts when you were getting ready to publish
C: As to what in particular? The ramifications?
R: Yes, the ramifications.
C: YES. Especially, I would like to relate to you that there were PHONE
CALLS MADE to someone VERY, VERY important in this WHOLE PICTURE and it
was a call FROM a HIGH LEVEL GOVERNMENT PERSON saying, 'Do you realize
that IF this comes out, that it COULD BRING THIS COUNTRY DOWN? Do you REALIZE
That call was NOT made to me. And someday the OTHER person on the other
end of that call will write a book and I have no doubt that that call will
be in that book and the DETAILS of WHY that call was made. But that's HOW
SCARED THEY ARE.
R: Mr. Cash I want to thank you for being with us. You're one of the
most important guests I've ever talked with and I SALUTE you and your paper.
I hope we can talk again sometime.
C: I'll tell you what... I can't say enough about the quality of your
program and the people who called in are 1st Class.
R: Thank you very much Mr. Cash, God Bless.
[I kept taping the show and viola another caller reminds us of the past!
Caller 10 (Bob): Did the subject of the FBI labs [and the problem with
evidence tampering] come up in your conversation?
R: Not yet, but it's got to play a part in this whole trial.
Bob: Typically when something is compromised with the govt. it's like
a [?] plea bargain that they fall into to cover up their tracks. That's
one thing I wanted your listeners to kind of track as we go through the
story on this.
The other thing that's interesting is how these things DOVE-TAIL. When
you read the book COMPROMISED by TERRY REED. Remember Reed's 1st meeting
with OLIVER NORTH when they were discussing the operation they were going
to begin in MENA? And WHERE did that take place??? In OKLAHOMA CITY, in
the BASEMENT of a bank building, wasn't it? Yes, if you look back, he described
an FBI SECRET LOCATION close to the FEDERAL BUILDING in the basement under
a bank with some kind of a pig on top of the building--kind of a funny
little QUIRK that they would work under a building with a pig on the top.
[Excerpt - for those of you who have not purchased "COMPROMISED:
Clinton, Bush and the CIA" by Terry Reed]
THE SOONER CONNECTION
J. Edgar Hoover continued to glare from his ominous portrait in the
Oklahoma City FBI office.
"F---ing Nixon and Kissinger!" Oliver North said once again.
"Yeah," Terry Reed replied.
The first meeting between the two Vietnam-era veterans had been arranged
by Edwin Enright, the SAC (Special Agent in Charge) of the Oklahoma City
FBI regional headquarters. But this was no ordinary meeting, and no ordinary
The leased federal office complex was located in the building housing
Sooner Federal Savings and Loan, whose logo was a pig outlined in neon,
on a giant sign that sat astride the roof above them. The FBI offices,
consisting of the entire two floors situated atop the high-rise structure,
had leaded walls to interdict electronic eaves-dropping. The restricted
basement floors below were a giant SWAT-team arsenal and a secret motor
Terry did not know that the man he was dealing with was Oliver North.
He had used the cover name "John Cathey." When they had been
introduced, Cathey had flashed government "creds"--Central Intelligence
Agency credentials--with, as Terry recalled later, "the photo, the
eagle and the whole nine yards."
This was not a chance meeting, of course. Terry and North had been brought
together by Enright for a reason. The Oklahoma City office had a reputation
of being run by men sympathetic to White House policy and their SACs were
willing to intervene on its behalf. Prior to Enright's tenure, this office
was headed by Oliver (Buck) Revell, who became the FBI's Executive Assistant
Director and their liaison with Oliver North, who would later solicit Revell's
help in limiting the Iran-Contra investigation.
Enright had arranged for both men to have lunch earlier at Cappuchina's,
an up-scale hangout favored by the agents, because Cathey and Enright believed
that Terry could be useful to both agencies. Enright was pleased that both
men appeared to have hit it off. And with good reason, for they discovered
that day that they both had carried back from South-east Asia the same
emotional scars. page 20 [Shadow]
R: BTW, Terry Reed will be our guest NEXT WEDNESDAY. Be listening. You
see, when you tune in this program you get more than just O.J.
Caller 11 (Alex): I think a change at the top will do wonders for the
country and as I was reading the paper I saw a quote by Adlai Stevenson
in today's Times: "Democracy cannot be saved by Supermen, but only
by the unswerving devotion and goodness of millions of little men."
R: That's much like what Judge Learnard Hand said: "Liberty lies
in the hearts of men and women. When it dies there, no Constitution, no
Law, no Court can save it."
Alex: That's right and the point I wanted to make was that WE CANNOT
GIVE UP. In a Democracy, ultimately, the people are ultimately the back
stop and if the leaders are falling on their faces and we just let it go,
we can kiss our own fannies good-bye. We have to do it... Nobody give up!
Transcribed by Shadow 2/20/97 1:52AM PT
10th Amendment The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States
respectively, or to the people.
BASEMENT of a bank building, wasn't it? Yes, if you look back,.
Jo Thomas Writes Something....
The New York Times
February 21, 1997
Oklahoma Bombing Judge Backs U.S. On 6 Witnesses
By JO THOMAS
DENVER -- The judge hearing the Oklahoma City bombing case refused a
defense request Thursday to suppress testimony from six important government
witnesses, saying there was no evidence that publicity about the case had
tainted their testimony to a degree that it should be barred.
"Nothing here says it's unfair to say to 12 jurors, 'Tell us what
you think,' " said U.S. District Court Judge Richard P. Match.
Match also rejected allegations by lawyers for the two defendants, Timothy
McVeigh and Terry Nichols, that prosecutors and federal investigators had
tried to influence the witnesses' testimony.
It was the third day of pretrial hearings for the two men, who will
stand trial separately in the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building
on April 19, 1995, and killing 168 people. McVeigh's trial is to begin
first, on March 31.
But Thursday's victory for the prosecution also brought a disclosure
that could be extremely helpful to McVeigh, his lawyer, Stephen Jones,
said at a news conference.
The indictment against McVeigh charges that he and Nichols bought two
tons of ammonium nitrate fertilizer used to make the bomb from a farmer's
cooperative store in Kansas, on Sept. 30, 1994, and on Oct. 18, 1994.
The only witness from the store who is expected to testify, Frederick
A. Schlender Jr., said Thursday that neither of the men he saw at the time
he sold the fertilizer looked like McVeigh, although one man might have
been Nichols, whose picture Schlender saw in a local newspaper after the
In addition to its potential for helping McVeigh, Schlender's testimony
raised again the possibility that someone the government has not identified
was also involved in the bombing, a possibility that has already been raised
by employees in the office where McVeigh rented the Ryder truck that the
government says carried the bomb. Witnesses from that office said in court
this week that although they could not identify him, another man accompanied
"The indictment in this case charges Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols
with committing this crime with unknown others," said Scott Mendeloff,
the prosecutor who handled the bulk of this week's hearings. "The
fact there may or may not have been someone else does not exonerate these
Asked how he could still place McVeigh at the Mid-Kansas Cooperative
at the time the fertilizer was purchased, Mendeloff said: "That will
be left for trial. To the extent we can establish that fact at trial, you'll
hear about it."
Jones said afterward, "This is an uphill battle for us, but what
we accomplished needs to also be realized." All of the witnesses have
refused to talk with lawyers or investigators for the defense, he said,
and this week's hearings have been "the only way we could get them
to come out of hiding and talk to us."
The hearings also gave the defense a chance to question FBI agents about
what the witnesses had told them, Jones said, and to "force the government
to put forth some of this evidence we wanted to see."
In the hearings, Jones and Michael Tigar, the lawyer for Nichols, attacked
the accounts of witnesses and challenged the reliability of methods used
by the government's expert witnesses, who will testify about items to be
introduced as evidence, including McVeigh's clothes, explosives on a fragment
of the Ryder truck, and a drill bit the government has linked to a theft
of explosives from a local quarry in October, 1994. The bit was found in
Nichols' home in Herington, Kan., after the bombing.
Every detail about McVeigh's appearance, including his height and whether
he always shaved, came up for examination in this week's hearings. In preparation,
McVeigh, who has listed his height as 6 feet 2 inches, was measured under
an order from the court and found to stand 6 feet 1 1/2 inches.
Several witnesses had first described the man they later identified
as McVeigh as standing 5 feet 10 or 11 inches. Noting the 4-inch discrepancy,
Jones had sought to exclude their testimony, arguing that they positively
identified McVeigh only after seeing him on television or reading about
One witness, Tim Donahue, the son of the owner of the Marion, Kan.,
farm where Nichols lived and worked in 1994, described a friend of Nichols
he saw twice at the farm as having a "scraggly beard," hair that
went to the middle of his ear, and an unkempt appearance.
After seeing McVeigh on television, Donahue testified this week, he
realized that the friend was McVeigh and, asked to clarify his description,
said the "beard" had been of only several days' growth.
Pointing to McVeigh's military-style haircut and clean-shaven appearance
at the time of his arrest, defense lawyers challenged Donahue's story,
contending that he had seen someone else and positively identified McVeigh
only after seeing him on TV.
Prosecutors countered by presenting a snapshot, found in Nichols' home
in Herington, of McVeigh with several days' growth on his face, standing
in front of Nichols' farmhouse.
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