THE JOHN DOE TIMES
Volume V, No. 6
4 April 1997
In This Issue:
The John Doe Times is an on-line, electronic newsletter devoted to the Oklahoma City bombing conspiracy/coverup published by the 1st Alabama Cavalry Regiment, Constitutional Militia and friends. We are a proud member of the "Right Wing Media Cabal", Internet Division and we are working our way up the Clinton White House Enemies List as fast as we can. Email us at: Mo10Cav@aol.com. Snail mail us (including letter bombs, death threats, sniveling letters of complaint) at: P.O. Box 926, Pinson, AL 35126. Back issues of the JDT may be found at: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6784/index.htm and other sites on the Web. Our motto: Sic Semper Rodentia!
Editor's Note: We are continuing to have distribution problems here at JDT, some of them not entirely explained by pure misfortune. We hope to be back on track with this issue, and to stay on the case and on schedule (such as it is) for the future. Again, our apologies for starving our readers hungry for the truth.
Copies of Stephen Jones' 200+ page filing of Petition for Writ of Mandamus, 25 March 1997, McVeigh v. Matsch, 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which lays out much of the case for government prior knowledge are available from the John Doe Times for $20.00 (to cover our costs) plus $2.50 postage and handling. Send postal money order for $22.50 to The John Doe Times, "McVeigh v. Matsch", P.O. Box 926, Pinson, AL 35126.
"OH SWEET JESUS, I'M F***ED!!":
MAHON REACTS POORLY TO NEWS OF STRASSMEIR'S REAL IDENTITY.
"Confessions Of A Bomber."
(No this isn't an April Fool's joke.)
(JDT Editor's Note: I received this story in two slightly different versions-- the prepublication article and the final version in the paper. The first was headlined: "Confessions of a Bomber"; the for-the-record version that the citizens of McCurtain County read was headlined "Confessions of a Revolutionary". I confess I prefer the former to the latter.)
"CONFESSIONS OF A REVOLUTIONARY"
MAHON: McVEIGH PLANNED BANK HEISTS, WANTED TO BE "PATRIOT HERO"
By J.D. Cash
(This statement by McCurtain Daily Gazette Editor Bruce Willingham was printed in a sidebar box near a really great scowling photo of Dennis Mahon:)
Editor's Note on today's story: Mr. Mahon's response to today's story cannot be printed here because most of it consists of four letter words. However, his position regarding the publication of his various statements regarding the Oklahoma City bombing and his associates' roles in it can best be summed up as "highly displeased."
Also, reporter J.D. Cash's role mentioned here-- appearing publicly with KKK leader Louis Beam and writing for Jubilee-- has been controversial in national news stories mentioning Cash.
Cash's double life in the underground movement while at the same time writing for this newspaper is a story best reserved for a later date, but suffice it to say the tactics are indeed unusual.
Also, the reason Cash provided a deposition concerning his initial interview with Mahon was because the reporter witnessed a death threat and was thus legally required to report the circumstances surrounding the threat to authorities.
JDT Commentary: As further evidence, if any were needed, that "the Racialist Movement" continues to fall apart over Oklahoma City, we are told by a certain three-letter network that Louis Beam has floated a proposition for a "tell-all" interview in return for the network flying him and his family out of the country. Costa Rica is said to be the country of destination. Mahon has also told folks he would like to flee-- perhaps to Costa Rica as well.
A friendly JDT reminder to Beam, Mahon and any other neoNazis, Mistaken Identities, or Crosseyed Kluxers who were involved in the Aryan Republican Army/Oklahoma City bombing as material witnesses: you know, boys, there are some very bad dudes down in Costa Rica who just happen to be more than a little interested in Oklahoma City-- just ask erstwhile Arkansas gun dealer Mr. Moore. They may not take kindly to "loose ends", particularly in a country where, to paraphrase the Gestapo chief in "Casablanca": "My dear Madamoiselle, perhaps you have already observed that in Costa Rica human life is cheap."
At the heart of an extensive and revealing legal document filed by Stephen Jones, (JDT NOTE: McVeigh v. Matsch, Petition for Writ of Mandamus, 25 March 1997, see above.) attorney for accused Oklahoma City bombing defendant Timothy McVeigh, the claim is made that Tulsan Dennis Mahon and mysterious German national Andreas Strassmeir, plus at least four other "unindicted" persons, likely planned and executed the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building with the avowed intention of setting into motion a race-based civil war.
As well, Jones alleges the government had prior knowledge of the conspiracy to bomb the Oklahoma City federal building yet bungled plans to stop it.
Also included in the defense petition is a tantalizing reference to an intermediary who tape-recorded a message from Mahon to McVeigh.
I was that intermediary.
Regarding this, Jones writes, "A defense attorney has interviewed Mahon and the defense received, through an intermediary, a tape recording that Mahon had made to be given to our client. The intermediary felt that the delivery of such tape recoding was improper and was concerned about its implications and forwarded it to the defense. The defense did not know whether the purpose of this tape recording was to encourage the defendant to 'sacrifice' himself for the eventual 'justice' of the cause or was a subtle threat intended to remind the defendant that members of his family were vulnerable."
Added Jones: "When the defense learned that Mahon and his brother had telephoned Germany with orders to kill Strassmeir, the FBI was immediately informed. Mahon's taped message goes on to say that Mr. McVeigh is 'innocent by reasons of entrapment, but notwithstanding being innocent, he should accept the sacrifice in order that justice may prevail.'"
For more than a year, a deposition containing sworn statements implicating others in the bombing conspiracy has been under seal with the Denver court and therefore hidden from public view.
That deposition reveals an extraordinary interview with a person who was the target of the so-called "McVeigh Confession." (The hoax document recently published by the Dallas Morning News and also placed on Playboy Magazine's web site).
Until now, the target of the "hoax confession" has never been identified by this newspaper. Nor were the means employed to obtain one of the most startling, incredible admissions ever made public. Now that story can be told.
As evidenced by a tape-recorded message to McVeigh, White Aryan Resistance (W.A.R.) leader Dennis Mahon was clearly confused as to this reporter's sympathies and associations during our first interview on Jan. 21, 1996.
That's when Mahon not only implicated himself in the bombing but also two of his closest comrades-- comrades that, today, are sitting in jail in Pennsylvania for what the government says is their shared role in a farflung conspiracy to rob banks in order to finance a race-based civil upheaval.
But even later, after Mahon learned the actual intentions of this reporter, he continued to piece together many of the elements of the bombing conspiracy. If accurate, they indeed reflect a complex plan which, Mahon finally admitted, was designed to produce civil disobedience and to establish McVeigh as a patriot martyr for the most radical elements of the international white power movement.
Considerable evidence tending to corroborate Mahon's various statements to the Gazette are set forth in the defense's action filed last week seeking a stay in the trial.
Contained within the petition are a host of items the defense says it has uncovered-- evidence that attorney Stephen Jones believes could prove his client's innocence while implicating Mahon and several other individuals who once lived at or frequented a far-right compound in eastern Oklahoma called Elohim City.
The centerpiece of the 200-plus page document is an international conspiracy scenario that the defense hopes will persuade the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals that government prosecutors have failed to provide documentation exculpatory to McVeigh.
Jones alleges the Justice Department has ignored-- whether intentionally or through negligence-- substantial proof that other persons may have perpetrated the bombing.
In federal criminal cases, the government is responsible for turning over evidence in its possession which might tend to prove the innocence of a person charged with a crime.
Thus, by filing this 11th hour petition, the defense hopes the appeals court will step in and instruct U.S. District Judge Richard P. Matsch to issue orders requiring the government to provide evidence that Jones believes the government is either hiding or has neglected to dig up.
Among the many allegations of impropriety, Jones asserts the government had "prior knowledge" of the plot to blow up the Murrah federal building because an informant at Elohim City, Carol E. Howe, told her Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) handler before the bombing that Mahon and Strassmeir were plotting to destroy federal buildings and installations.
Howe said one of the three possible targets Mahon and Strassmeir had mentioned was the Oklahoma City federal building, where 168 persons perished on April 19, 1995.
The McVeigh defense believes the government tried to disguise Howe's identity and her information by "doctoring" documents in such a way that defense computers could not identify and locate the critically important information Jones says his client "desperately needs to defend himself."
Jones only learned of the existence of Howe and her work for the BATF at Elohim City after the McCurtain Gazette revealed her undercover operation at the 1,000 acre compound.
On Jan. 29, Jones confronted the prosecution in Judge Matsch's chambers and was told that buried among 211,000 pages of discovery material provided his office by the government over one year ago, Howe's brief but potentially crucial statements to federal authorities could be found.
After being provided the document's ID number, Jones finally located it and quickly discovered that every single name contained in it had been misspelled-- and thus, couldn't be searched by computer with accurate spellings used.
In the petition, Jones claims the misspellings were deliberate.
"Defense counsel is convinced that the government has engaged in a willful and knowing cover-up of information supplied to it by its informant. The defense was unable to locate this insert using a computer because all major search terms contained in the insert were misspelled. Elohim City was misspelled or misidentified (Elohm City), as was Mahon (Mehaun), Strassmeir (Strassmeyer), the Rev. Robert Millar (Bob Lamar) and in addition, Carol Howe was not identified in the insert at all."
The series of mistakes explained why the defense's CD-ROM computer program, which operates on a "key word index", could not identify the potentially explosive evidence-- evidence that clearly indicates the BATF's own paid informant believes persons at Elohim City plotted to bomb the Oklahoma City federal building.
The defense filing also accused the government of stonewalling earlier requests for similar evidence of "prior knowledge" of a plot to bomb the federal building because of "the bureaucratic instinct for self-preservation and the institutional pressures for a neat and tidy conviction in this case to ensure that, in the absence of coercion by this court, information vital to the defense will simply never see the light of day."
Jones also contends that besides Mahon and Strassmeir, there could be as many as four other unindicted persons involved in the bombing and further, "The government possesses information which would shed light on the identities of these persons."
Employing brutal language, McVeigh's petition claims that Howe's information "suggests strongly that the BATF, the most hapless and beleaguered of the federal law enforcement agencies, may have had notice that militant right-wing radicals had targeted the Alfred P. Murrah Building for destruction and botched the interception of the plan in the finest Waco tradition."
Referring to Howe's recent indictment by a federal grand jury in Tulsa, Jones wrote, "The defense believes that an indictment was obtained against Carol Howe for the purposes of 'leverage' against her in order to keep her mouth shut about what she knows about the activities of Mahon and Strassmeir.... The institutional repercussions for BATF if Carol Howe is telling the truth could be the death knell of that organization."
Jones contends that there is "a high probability, certainly at least a high possibility, that Mahon and Strassmeir are part of a conspiracy that planned to bomb the federal building, and may have in fact been part of the conspiracy to bomb the Murrah Building."
Continuing, "Andreas Strassmeir's roommate, Mike Brescia, and two other residents of Elohim City have now been indicted by a federal grand jury for 22 midwestern bank robberies in which false FBI identification and threats of bombs were involved. These robberies, according to the indictment, were to finance the Aryan Republican Army (which included as one of its members Dennis Mahon)."
"Don't ever forget Bob Mathews and don't ever forget the 'Order'... because that's what's gonna happen again soon.... It's coming again!.... Revolution is coming!.... It's coming sooner than you think!" -- Dennis Mahon, July, 1991, Aryan World Congress, Hayden Lake, Idaho.
Were these only the preposterous rantings of a demagogue or the prophecies of a madman with a plan?
Most of those who attended the 1991 annual gathering of this country's most radical white separatists may have initially discounted what the 6'-1", 190 pound self-described revolutionary was saying.
After all, in 1991 the 40-year old Oklahoma White Knights KKK leader was considered by many counter-terrorism experts (and even by some of his peers) to be little more than a mouthy upstart in the white power movement.
A showman of sorts, Mahon strutted among the nation's most dangerous movers and shakers in the terrorist underground-- individuals such as late-Grand dragon of the Michigan Klan, Bob Miles, and former Grand Dragon of the Texas Knights of the KKK, Louis Beam.
Eventually Mahon would forge an alliance with Tom Metzger's White Aryan Resistance (W.A.R.)-- an incredibly violent international group of skinheads, who regularly make the police blotters for a variety of race-based crimes.
During the late '80s and into the '90s, Mahon exhibited a yearning for media attention as he travelled the U.S., Canada and Germany organizing "cross lightings" and making speeches that were so incendiary that he was subsquently banned from both Canada and Germany.
However bold the words, though, Mahon's very public bravado was not suspected of being translated into violent action against the system.
In a word, Mahon was labeled a "talker" by some important members of the various shadowy underground hate groups which dot the global landscape. That label dogged Mahon until a hellish blast decimated the Oklahoma City federal building on April 19, 1995.
Several months after the bombing, this newspaper received a tip through an intermediary who had a source at Hayden Lake, Idaho (home of the Aryan Nations) claiming Dennis Mahon was one of the ring leaders in the group that bombed the federal building.
At the same time that information being developed, it was discovered that Mahon had ties to a mysterious figure who, for three years, lived at Elohim City.
That man, Andreas Carl Strassmeir, a former officer in the German Army with close connections to the Kohl government, had forged a friendship with Mahon after taking over the job of weapons and security consultant at Elohim City.
Deepening the interest in Strassmeir was information received from a McVeigh defense team investigator, who revealed it was Strassmeir that McVeigh admitted calling Elohim City for on April 5, 1995, leaving a message with a woman, saying "Tell Andy I'll be visiting soon."
Subsequently, Joan Millar, the daughter-in-law of the Rev. Millar (founder of Elohim City), admitted to the FBI that she was the person McVeigh spoke with that day.
The call to Elohim City is considered particularly damning for two reasons:
(1) It was made from a motel room in Kingman, Ariz., that was registered to McVeigh.
(2) And the call occured only seconds after a calling card linked to McVeigh and co-defendant Terry Nichols was used to phone a Ryder truck rental establishment in Arizona.
Based upon these facts, in December, 1995, a member of the McVeigh defense team arranged for an interview with Strassmeir, who had left Elohim City in August and was living in Black Mountain, N.C.
During the interview, Strassmeir admitted several things of interest, including the unsettling fact that he had Timothy McVeigh's "Desert Storm" battle fatigues and had removed, then destroyed, the name tag stitched to the shirt immediately after learning of McVeigh's arrest.
That interview persuaded McVeigh's investigator to track down Mahon.
In mid-January 1996, the investigator met with Mahon at the office of a Tulsa attorney who represented the W.A.R. leader.
On January 20, this reporter also contacted Mahon and established a time to meet the following day.
Arriving at Mahon's residence that he shares with his twin brother Daniel, Dennis Mahon was first shown a newspaper popular among members of the Christian Identity religion, called Jubilee.
A full page ad was pointed out to Mahon that showed this reporter's photograph along with Aryan Nations' guru and frequent Jubilee contributor, Louis Beam. Mahon was clearly impressed when it was explained that I would soon be visiting with Beam at Lake Tahoe where a conference was to be held.
Next, Mahon was shown a letter from the Jones law firm, granting this reporter permission to meet with McVeigh at the El Reno federal prison, on Feb. 13, for a "special visitor" interview.
Immediately, Mahon settled on his sofa and asked, "Why are journalists beginning to recognize and report that there are other persons involved in the bombing of the Murrah Building?"
Incredulous, he added, "For the longest time it seemed like everyone had walked away from that information, from that understanding, so why is this beginning again?"
Ingoring the question, this journalist said, "You have no idea how much trouble and negative reactions have resulted because the building was blown up during the day... and with a day care center, no less.... Why wasn't the IRS building blown up at night?"
Mahon's answer is summarized in a sealed deposition taken on March 26, 1996:
"And he (Mahon) indicated that the reults of the bombing were not as he anticipated. He felt like this would cause a coming together of radicals around the country who would begin a campaign of terrorism. In retrospect, he feels like the IRS building should have been bombed instead of the Murrah Building and probably should have been bombed at night. The day care center and the killing of the children was having a negative effect."
With Mahon apparently believing that this reporter was connected to the neo-Nazi movement because of articles that had appeared in Jubilee, I predicted to him that McVeigh was going to "go down quietly" but suggested there was a very real problem. I then said that my information was that Strassmeir was suspected of being a German intelligence officer and still connected to the German military.
Summarized in the deposition is Mahon's reaction to the news "He went pale and screamed."
What is not reflected in the deposition is the colorful and vivid account of the unforgettable (and comical) moment when Mahon hauled his giant frame from the sofa, then gazed at the ceiling and wailed, "Oh sweet Jesus, I'm f***ed!!!"
Completely overwhelmed, Mahon next began pacing the room, shaking his head and saying, "I can't believe it... not Andy... God, no.... It can't be true!"
As reported in the deposition, Mahon's next statements are noted:
"He then within a few minutes started discussing how important it was to get ahold of Mark Thomas, who is an Aryan Nations official in Pennsylvania, and Mike Brescia, who at that time I understood was staying at Mark's farm, which is outside Philadelphia, Penn."
"He indicated to me that they were deeply involved. He indicated that Mike Brescia was the person that we refer to as the pretty John Doe (No. 2)-- the younger one with the pugnose that is in the sketch. I think there are two or three different sketches. He has all the features and so forth. He wanted even to show me a film with him on it but he was never able to find anything."
Grabbing the phone, Mahon then nervously dialed. When a connection was made to Thomas' farm, he stuttered, "I am here with a friend of Louis Beam's and he says we've got real trouble.... Strassmeir could be a snitch... he may be government! We need to come see you and Mike."
Thomas was very upset that we were even having the conversation. He didn't understand why we were talking. But I asked him if he had been at Elohim City about the time of the bombing. Thomas indicated he had been there the weekend before the bombing.
I said, "Well, then you must have stayed for Snell's funeral" (which occurred immediately after the OKC bombing). He got nervous.
"No, no, I didn't stay for the funeral... Let me talk to Dennis."
Although his brother was periodically drifting in and out of the room, trying to allay Mahon's fears of impending doom, soon both were on the line with a person in Germany.
The call is described in the deposition:
"The gist of the conversation was they (Mahon and his brother, who was acting as interpreter) wanted Andreas Strassmeir checked out, they wanted to find out if Andreas Strassmeir could be an agent for the German government. They said that Andreas Strassmeir had once been friend and once been a very good friend, but if it turned out that Andreas Strassmeir had double-crossed them, then he (Dennis) wanted to hold a 30-minute trial-- Let me back up-- He wanted Andreas shot in both kneecaps and a confession elicited from him, then hold a 30-minute trial and then execute him."
Next, Mahon agreed to make a tape recording for McVeigh-- and wanted me to take it to him in prison.
On the tape, Mahon initially explains to McVeigh that I was a reporter for Jubilee. Then he adds, "Tim, I want to thank you for 'hanging-tough'" (jail house slang for taking all the blame for a crime while not exposing any other participants). "I believe you are innocent because of entrapment. I believe you have been set-up!"
Tapping McVeigh's "hot buttons," Mahon told McVeigh, "I do believe this government is the most evil government on the face of this earth. I believe they massacred those people at Waco. I think every federal agent there should be tried for murder. I believe every agent at Ruby Ridge should be tried for accessory to murder. And I believe Lon Horiuchi... the... HRT... sniper... should be tried for murder."
Twice near the end of the tape recorded message, Mahon firmly reminds McVeigh to "hang tough." Then Mahon urges him to "remember all the good soldiers who have fallen on the field of battle in their fight for the cause.... Justice will be done, Tim."
Before concluding the interview, this reporter commented to Mahon: "There are people at Aryan Nations at Hayden Lake who have fingered you as an important part of the conspiracy."
The deposition details Mahon's shock:
"That's why Metzger (head of W.A.R.) has cut me off."
"What do you mean? I asked.
"Two weeks ago, Metzger called me and he said 'We will not have any more conversations, any contact, telephone or otherwise until I let you know. You are hot right now."
Several months passed before substantial contacts were made with Mahon again by this reporter.
During the spring and summer of 1996, witnesses were located in Kansas and Oklahoma that had already told the FBI of McVeigh's associations with Michael Brescia and Andreas Strassmeir, thus Mahon's incredible admissions of Jan. 21 had a ring of truth.
Beginning with a mid-summer call from a victim in the bombing, asking for a meeting with Mahon, the shaken voice on the other end of the tape-recorded call asked, "Why?"
When it was explained that the victim believed Mahon had important information concerning the bombing, he said, "You need to talk to Strassmeir.... Andy knows.... Andy knows everything!"
A few days after the call, this reporter began a regular dialogue with Mahon. During the course of the next several months, many hours of interviews were conducted in Tulsa, McCurtain County and over the phone.
Much of the information imparted dealt with with activities of people who had moved in and out of Elohim City and the various criminal enterprises that took place there.
The problem with such information, though, is that Mahon wafts between multiple personalities that occasionally spout pure fiction designed to disseminate disinformation or aggrandize his life's unusual accomplishments.
But many pieces of Mahon's information were checking out, so the dialogue was continued. In the early fall of 1996, Mahon travelled from Tulsa in his pickup/camper and stayed at my home for three days.
During that period, Mahon appeared much more open, almost relieved to discuss various facts about the Aryan Republican Army and its members.
JDT Commentary: "STOP ME BEFORE I BOMB AGAIN!"
Stark reality seemed to be having an effect on him, as the authorities had arrested four members of his gang for bank robbery and the arrests of two more alleged gang members, Mike Brescia and Mark Thomas, were on the horizon.
But the most alarming to Mahon was that one of the A.R.A. members, Kevin McCarthy was cooperating with authorities and another member, Richard Guthrie, had made a plea bargain and had made statements to authorities before being hanged in his jail cell. Thus, by October, Mahon saw his world closing in.
"Every day," Mahon told me, "the feds put another fence post around me.... It won't be long before I go down with the rest of the guys."
Sitting in my living room one evening, Mahon sipped 100 proof vodka and lamented, "When they arrest Mark Thomas... he'll rat me out first, I know him too well.... He's weak. Mark has a thing for young girls and he won't like spending the rest of his life locked up with a bunch of nigger boys."
When asked if Thomas would implicate him in just the bank robberies, Mahon shook his head and said, "No... he'll nail me for everything... everything."
During the surreal and often comical three days the White Aryan Resistance leader spent in McCurtain County, the man listed by European authorities as an "international terrorist" took time out to defrost my refrigerator, clean two VCRs, replace some burned-out light bulbs and intermittently complain about what a poor a housekeeper I was.
In the evenings we would take Jeep rides in the mountains, drinking beer while Mahon recounted various tales such as his favorite abortion clinic bombings and ingenious plans he had worked out for an armored car heist.
Mahon was, in a word, reminiscent. And, with most of his friends in jail or hiding out, lonely.
Taken by the fall scenery, Mahon quickly fell in love with the lightly- populated northern end of the county.
"This is an Aryan paradise," he often commented.
Poring over several scrapbooks he had brought for me to see, the W.A.R. leader took time to explain the history of the Klan and Aryan Nations movement around the globe. His stories were detailed and enlightening.
Letters from members of the neo-Nazi movement throughout the United States, Canada, Europe, South America, Australia and the Phillipines established his international recognition and credentials.
Often displaying photographs of the leaders of the various organizations, Mahon, sometimes near tears, described his associations with various high-profile members of the movement that he used to meet with and scheme no telling what. Those were the heady days for the aspiring revolutionary.
In great detail, Mahon described how the leadership's tactics had evolved from marching around in robes and lighting crosses to today's underground cell structure which is far more violent and secretive.
Clearly sensing the end of his freedom was imminent, Mahon hammered at a phrase that he wanted me to remember: "Revolutionaries are not born... they are made."
Pushing across a copy of his resume, he explained, "I've served my country in the Navy and I've been to college. I've worked for all those airlines as a mechanic and I was about to be married to a girl when I got fired because of what I am... Like the nigger. I lost my girl and no I have no family... nothing."
Looking over his resume, Mahon became more specific about his role with the A.R.A. and said that the Aryan Republican Army was a rebirth of the "Order"-- a group and a theology his hero Bob Mathews had formed and then died for more than a decade ago.
Mahon's gang was made up of some 20-21 persons, operating in cells of three to five, and the plan was as straightforward and violent as Mathews' was: Rob, pillage and murder in the name of the white race and the coming revolution.
The nucleus of the group was formed around a bank robbery cell whose members were now rapidly ending up in prison.
Eventually, Mahon admitted that the most noteworthy member of the A.R.A. was the young man, Timothy McVeigh.
Mahon said that McVeigh, a former armored car driver, helped plan some of the bank heists.
Incredible, a few months later, Mahon's statements were borne out when this reporter discovered McVeigh's own sister on May 2, 1995, made a sworn statement to the FBI where she gave many of the same facts.
In an eerie but frank conversation, Mahon described McVeigh as a "good soldier, who from the beginning wanted to be the fall guy in the bombing-- securing his place in history as a patriot hero."
Then, shown an artist's sketch done by ABC News of the person that a witness in Kansas said used the name of Bob Kling (the name used to rent the bomb-laden Ryder truck) and who accepted a delivered food order at the same room rented to McVeigh at the Dreamland Motel, Mahon didn't hesitate, "That's Pete Ward."
"Ward," Mahon explained, "was known at Elohim City as 'Andy's shadow'...Ward went everywhere Strassmeir did and is dumb as dirt."
Did Pete ward rent the Ryder truck in Junction City?
"Well," Mahon smiled, "you know his brother, Tony, has a pocked complexion... Maybe you ought to go to Belen, N.M., and get a picture of him, too."
Who built the bomb?
Looking over a series of photographs of the blown-out nine-story federal building, Mahon peered up, "I'll tell you who didn't build that bomb-- Tim or Terry. Hell, they don't know the first thing about how to build what did this!"
Finally, one day I told Mahon how I first learned of his relationship with McVeigh and another important tidbit.
"Rev. Millar told me a year ago that you used to bring McVeigh down to Elohim City to use the gun range. He also told me on tape that Brescia helped with the Hot Springs gun robbery of Roger Moore...."
"Oh, that son-of-a-bitch.... that dumb son-of-a-bitch doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut!"
Such is the stuff of Dennis Mahon.
TRANSCRIPT: KOKH, OKLAHOMA CITY, OK
2 APRIL 1997
REPORTER: RITA COSBY
Reporter: Has anything good come out of the Oklahoma City bombing?
Robert Millar, Elohim City leader: "I think that severeal things have happened that are positive, which does not justify it in any way."
ANCHOR: Tonight, the self-proclaimed leader of Elohim City speaks out about his white separatist movement and its possible link to Oklahoma City bombing. Topping news tonight, new information on separatists in eastern Oklahoma and their possible connection with the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building. Rita Cosby got unprecedented access to Elohim City. Rita joins us now. Rita, why do you think the leader of this group finally wanted to talk to somebody in the media at such length?
Reporter: Jack and Kirsten, it's no secret that Reverend Millar distrusts and dislikes the media. But he told me he felt Fox would give him a fair shot. He also believes that with so many questions swirling around Elohim City, it is time to try to tell all. Some of the key elements of our interview were what Robert Millar says about the government's star witness, whether any good came from the bombing, and what he thinks should happen to however's responsible. This shadowy community allegedly tied to the Oklahoma City bombing is called Elohim City, named after the Hebrew word for God. But the community's philosophy is not always peaceful. This remote area in eastern Oklahoma will be pivotal in the bombing trial as McVeigh's attorneys try to plant doubt by telling the jury that two people could not have carried out the bombing alone. Robert Millar is the self-proclaimed reverend and leader of this tiny enclave that he established 26 years ago. For the first time, he says the government's prime witness against Timothy McVeigh could have been inside Elohim City around the time of the bombing.
Reporter to Millar: Did you ever meet Timothy McVeigh?
Reporter: Did you ever meet Terry Nichols?
Reporter: Did you ever meet Michael Fortier?
Millar: He might have been here for two or three days. I can't answer you.
Reporter: Do you know when that was? Was it before the bombing?
Millar: I would think it would be before the bombing or shortly after. Right in that time frame.
Reporter: Michael Fortier, a former Army buddy of Tim McVeigh, is the government's star witness. Fortier will testify that he knew McVeigh was planning to bomb the Murrah Building. The two people Revernd Millar believes met with Fortier here on the compound are Andreas Strassmeir, known in America as Andy, and Michael Brescia, who at the time were rooming together at Elohim City. A former government informant and a consultant for McVeigh's defense team say they are certain Brescia is John Doe Number Two. John Doe Number Two is the man several witnesses say was with McVeigh near the blast site. Strassmeir's background remains a mystery. He is a German national with alleged neo-Nazi ties.
Millar: Andy could have been doing a lot of things I wasn't aware of and so could the chap he roomed with, Michael Brescia. They could have been doing a lot of things that I don't know anything about.
Reporter: Millar's personal view is that the Oklahoma City bombing was a tragedy.
Millar: It's a terrible thing to see women and children murdered. Words can't describe it. It's appalling. It's unthinkable.
Reporter: What about the federal agents that were killed in the bombing? What do you think of that?
Millar: Not only from a moral viewpoint of killing somebody, but from a standpoint of strategy of patriots, for people that are patriots, for the patriotic movement, there is no conceivable advantage to killing a few government agents. What do you accomplish? Nothing positive. And federal agents have wives and children and grandchildren, just the same as we are. Who wants to be involved in that kind of thing?
Reporter: What do you think of Timothy McVeigh?
Millar: I don't know anything about him.
Reporter: If he's guilty of the Oklahoma City bombing, what do you think of Timothy McVeigh?
Millar: If he's guilty, I would call that murder. I would like a thorough examination, but I do believe that the death penalty for murder is a viable sentence, and acceptable sentence.
Reporter: Is there any Middle Eastern connection to Elohim City?
Millar: No, not that I can even dream of.
Reporter: Was there any good that came out of the Oklahoma City bombing? Any good message that could have come out of that?
Millar: I think that several things have happened which... that are positive, which does not justify it in any way. But I think the groups inside law enforcement cliques that were pushing for a confrontation with the patriotic people. I think they have changed their methodology. I don't think they're attempting to provoke an overt confrontation any longer. That's number one.
JDT Commentary: That just goes to show how far removed from reality Millar truly is.
Number two, strangely enough, the attitude of the public across America who I come in contact with are far more supportive of us than they were before.
JDT Commentary: Yes, Millar, you're quite well thought of in neo-Nazi terrorist circles, but why don't you take a poll of the rest of us citizens and ask us what we think of you neo-Nazi Switzerland you're running there.
ANCHOR: Rita, we saw in the story that you had no shoes on. What was the reason for that?
Reporter: He believes that all four hundred acres in this compound are hallowed ground, and he said it was disrespectful to wear shoes in a home for religious reasons but also that it should not bring any dirt into the home, that it was a burden for the women who clean the home.
ANCHOR: In your transcript, I read he talks about Waco and how some people think Waco was the motive for the Oklahoma City bombing.
Reporter: Millar was very against Timothy McVeigh if he committed the Oklahoma City bombing. But he says militia groups should have been involved with the Waco seige. He believes that they should have come in armed-- he mentioned semi-automatic weapons-- and fought off the ATF agents that were "mercilessly keeping these people under seige." On one hand, he's saying violence is bad, but on the other hand he says violence is good if used in certain cases.
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