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20th Anniv. Memorial, Mt. Carmel Massacre, Pt 2, Dick Reavis
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Jun 5, 2025
Dick Reavis, journalist and author of book, The Ashes of Waco, comments on events skince the massacre.
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take a quick vote everybody who thinks
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you need a break raise your hand
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all right i'm already through
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no right
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there are four people
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i'm dr evans
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i
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am a texas journalist
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essentially exiled in north carolina now
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though it ain't bad
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i've been teaching in north carolina for
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the last 10 years teaching journalism
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i think they wanted me to speak because
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i wrote
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the book that has become the primer
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on what happened in 1993
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by the primer i mean
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where you begin the study of it
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almost everybody begins there
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and then goes into other things
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the book is still in print 20 years
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later
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that speaks
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for its value better than i could
1:02
clive was mentioning methylene chloride
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in
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the fire and so on
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i think the first time those ideas
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hit the print
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in the mainstream media
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work with my book which was published in
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1995.
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and
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i don't claim that those are my original
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ideas i don't even remember where i got
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them
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i remember the experts i talked to but
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at that time a lot of people were doing
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a lot of thinking
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i think that mike mcnulty has been the
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man at the center
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of the forensic work
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done since my book came out
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i've got some notes here
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the conditions under which i wrote my
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book were not favorable
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what happened was that i was a sign
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assigned to the dallas observer
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to come down here
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and write something during the siege
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i came down here and found out there was
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only one source of information the atf
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and fbi press conferences
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they reminded me of those i had attended
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in mexico which at that point had a
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one-party government
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you got all your news from the
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government and what the government said
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was true period
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the big difference was that in mexico at
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the press conferences they serve far
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better food than they did here
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and
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so i attended a couple of them and went
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back and told the observer we can't get
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this
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story while all the davidians who have
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left are in jail and are
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being kept away from the press illegally
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essentially
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we've got to wait until the thing is
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over and maybe there'll be a story and
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maybe there won't
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when it was over
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a guy from soldier a fortune jim pate
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had done the best job that i think was
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done during the 51 days
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call me and told me all the survivors
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who were not in jail or staying in one
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hotel
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and wake up
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so i came down checked into the hotel
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and tried to talk to people
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and they said you're the press
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you all have given us a bad way to go
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we're not talking
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but i noticed something
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none of these people had cars because
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the fbi had flattened all their cars
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i heard rutherford insurance company
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trying to claim
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and he said he asked for replacement of
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the car and they said well what happened
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to your car
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if we have flattened it
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i'm sure that the person on the other
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end of the insurance company still
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remembers that conversation
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and i had a little volkswagen beetle so
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i sat in the lobby
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and began offering people rides
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and they took them because they didn't
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have cars and they didn't have money for
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taxis
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and little by little we began to talk
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i knew i'm not a religious person
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and at the time i smoked very heavily
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and i began to notice that none of you
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had asked me when i was going to accept
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jesus christ as my lord and savior
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so ask them why don't you ask me that
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question
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and they said we can't explain our
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religion in 15 minutes
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and
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it occurred to me
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that there were two stories here one the
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government's story and the other the
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story of the believers
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and then i didn't understand anything
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the believers said
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what the press said is that everybody in
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that building was crazy
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i didn't believe you could have 130
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people living in one building who were
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schizophrenic
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without having great disorder
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so i had to start learning what these
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people believed
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and i think that because i did not have
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a religion
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i was not prejudiced against them
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i
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clowned and sheila helped me
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and for weeks livingstone fagon called
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me every saturday morning gave me bible
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scriptures to read
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and then we discussed the ones i had
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read
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in the prior week
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and i read ellen white
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and i did my homework
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it took about six months
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and finally i began to see
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how the davinians as
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it's a misnomer but as we call them
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saw what was going on
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and why they did what they did
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it was pretty obvious to me that the fbi
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and the atf
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were not speaking this is what made my
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research hard we're not releasing any
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documents
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we're among
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it was pretty obvious to me from their
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behavior during the ride in the siege
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that they were guilty
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of three things
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ignorance
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arrogance and negligence
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by ignorance i mean they were attacking
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what amounted to an enemy
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without knowing anything about the enemy
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they sent robert rodriguez in as an
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undercover agent to find out what the
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davidians believed
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and when he started telling them they
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said robert
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you've been influenced by them when
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calm down come back to the rule of the
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world
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which itself is a religious concept
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and when he told them
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they know you're coming
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and they'll resist
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they blew it off
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they thought he was speaking as a
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sympathizer
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because he knew something
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all right that they did not think could
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be knowledge
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so they had a policy
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which preferred ignorance
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and their right was based on that
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ignorance of many many things
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the other thing is that they were
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arrogant
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they lied to us during that siege
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about the milk negotiations
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and many other things
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and when quresh told them
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that he wasn't leaving on march the 2nd
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i believe was the day he was supposed to
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be leaving
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he told his followers and they told the
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fbi that god had spoken to him
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and told him not to surrender
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or not to leave at that point
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the fbi said david torres thinks god
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told him that
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and then laughed
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the spokesman did
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as if we all know god didn't tell him
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that
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with my agnostic perspective i said i
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wasn't there
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i don't know if god told him that or not
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you would have had to have been there to
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know
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unless you are certain
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about what god is
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fortunately i was not
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so i kept studying the subject
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the other thing is and clive has just
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mentioned it at a minimum the fbi was
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negligent
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in shooting those ferret rounds and that
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methylene chloride into that building
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i cover all of that in my book
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you don't pour gasoline on a man
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and then when he burns up
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blame him
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especially if you're a smoker and you've
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just lit a cigarette
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the fbi threw all the blame on everybody
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else and to this day to my knowledge is
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not admitting any itself
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the same goes for for the atf
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so i felt
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that whether or not
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the davidians set the fire which is
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their charge and i could not
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substantiate that
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whatever caused that fire
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the fbi may have helped it and there's a
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whole series i ran across it is what
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would amount to
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my research
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incidents in which you shoot tear gas
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into a place and then it burns
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i think the last one may be this guy
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what was his name dorman
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out in california
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why did his place burn down well they'd
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shot some tear gas into it right before
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it
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and
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i did not charge
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and this is what clive's talking about
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now
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the fbi was murdered which would mean
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that they intentionally killed me
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my feeling was they were so ignorant and
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arrogant
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and negligent that they were
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responsible that they owed at least an
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apology
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my book came out in 1995.
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i was at the memorial service here at
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mount
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carmel i mailed it in that morning on my
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way to that memorial service
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we get to the memorial service and find
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out what tim timothy mcveigh had done
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the murrah building blew up
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and that i have to admit helped make my
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book because
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the american people had pretty much
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forgotten
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about what happened in 1993
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mcvay reminded them i don't say that in
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mitigation am he shouldn't have done it
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but
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that that established the importance of
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it i was called to congress to testify
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and the one era that i know i made in my
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book was pointed out to me in congress
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i said that mr john the prosecutor in
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the trial was a short man
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the government had him stand up
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and they said mr john have you read mr
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revis book yes i have
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do you think it's an accurate book
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he stands up
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he says well
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i am six feet tall six feet one and used
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to play football
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mr revis says that i am a short man
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it's a mistake i made as a reporter i
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sat in a courtroom with him for six
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weeks
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and i wound up writing that it was short
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when it's me and short
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but the other thing is he's real wide
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and that's what i saw not his height
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other than that no one has
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to my knowledge has disproved anything i
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said in my book
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i think it tells the truth
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some people would say the minimal truth
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meaning i do not accuse the government
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of murder
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but at least what i say you can rely on
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rely upon
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that's why it became the primer
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now then i want to say a couple of other
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things
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because i am was the only one in the
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press who went through what amounts to
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theological investigation
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learning what the davidians thought
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i was famously called in the press
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famously in a gathering of reporters
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was memorably called a grumpy of the
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davidians
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by lee hancock the reporter for the
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dallas news
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who is the establishment's
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expert about wipeout
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i confess to having been a student of
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the davidians
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i still don't believe any of it
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that puts to rest that charge i never
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did believe any of it i remain agnostic
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second thing i want to bring up is the
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gun control issues
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most of the support
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that came to the dominion oh let me
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first get into
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freedom of religion
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assault on the dominions was charged is
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a violation
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of
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freedom of religion of the first
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amendment
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when i look at it
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i see
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and actually my wife told me this
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i said this is a violation of freedom of
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religion and she said
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who defines freedom from religion church
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for
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state i said well the state does the
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government does
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now you know what kind of freedom of
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religion you have she said
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if you look at the law and last week
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after a discussion with clive i looked
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at ellen white to see what she believes
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she saw it the same way
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the constitution allows you to believe
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anything you want
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now tell me how can they enforce a law
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against belief
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i may believe there's a martian stand
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standing at the back door and how do
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they know
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it allows them to say that there's a
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martian standing at the back door
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it allows you to profess but it does not
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allow you to practice
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if for example david was trying to have
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24 children by virgins
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and some of these children were born to
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underage women
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by our laws he committed statutory rape
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and that is not a violation to have
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arrested him for that for which the
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federal government had no authority by
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the way
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but had he been arrested for that by the
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state authorities
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that would not have been
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a violation of
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freedom of religion
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because we don't have freedom of
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religion we have regulated religion
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the example i give you points it out
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the same thing goes for gun control
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we americans say well that's a that's a
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right we have
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if you look at it it's not quite that
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simple
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the british before the american
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revolution freely owned guns
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no one to this day
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has ever questioned the right of a
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farmer to own a shotgun to kill snikes
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or for a hunter to own a rifle
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but like with religion
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we have regulated it
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the regulations started with the
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regulation against a machine gun
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i don't know where they will end
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i don't know i'm agnostic about this i
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don't know
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what to make of it
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when the founding fathers wrote the
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constitution they gave us
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freedom to own firearms because that
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freedom had existed under the british
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and the american revolution wasn't about
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depriving people of british liberties
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it was about increasing
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they did that because they did not
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believe in a standing army or many of
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them did not they feared a standing army
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they associated it with the british
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standard standing army
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it was a feature of tyranny for them
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what they foresaw
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was a government how do you say a people
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which defended themselves through
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militias
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and the constitution says in order to
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have a well-regulated militia
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you can have guns
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i want to mention here that that the
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militia provision was put in
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at the suggestion
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of
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senators from the slave holding states
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because those militias were used to
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catch runaway slaves and suppress slave
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rebellions
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so that the secular movement in which a
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lot of people take great pride and point
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to for american freedom
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has also been touched
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by the theme that runs through all our
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national life which is white supremacy
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we can't be entirely proud of the second
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amendment
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in any case
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when the british when the
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founders wrote the second amendment
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they were
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allowing americans to own any weapon
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that an army or a government might have
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because you needed those weapons to
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resist tyranny and foreign conquest
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what are you going to do with missiles
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and drones and smart bombs
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the founder's principle was if the
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government can have it the people can
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have it
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because they need to be able to defend
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themselves against tyranny
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i don't know anybody who thinks that
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their next door neighbor ought to have a
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missile silo
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i think drones would make us
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uncomfortable if they have guns
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so if we believe in the second amendment
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we have to choose
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should we have the right to own any
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weapon the government does
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and if it does
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there are two ways to go
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everybody gets a missile silo and a
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drone
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or the government gets rid of those
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weapons
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of mass destruction
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and what are the chances of our
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government getting rid of its weapons of
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mass destruction
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we now have a standing army
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that can impose tyranny
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and we're talking about little
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regulations over civilian ownership of
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guns
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which cannot resist the army we've got
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now
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firearms will no longer
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help us make a revolution
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or intimidate tyrants
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they've got us out gunned
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so i don't know what to do about that
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issue i did not write my book to please
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the nra
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it's that simple when the nra comes to
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me i ask one question i say well
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i don't think if everybody carried a
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pistol it'd be a bad idea
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because i've worked in factories
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the superintendents and the foreman were
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awful abusive
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and i think that if all the workers had
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guns
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they'd be more polite
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right
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and they're going to have out them pink
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slips and tell you they don't want you
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back on monday
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it'd be a little more polite
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and the nra people tell me oh but that
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would conflict with property rights
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and i said wait a minute which one of us
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here is for gun rights me or you
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you're saying property rights i'm saying
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gun rights which one of us is the
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the real nri
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so i think that
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we run into with the first and the
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second amendment insoluble riddles
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if the constitution was divinely
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inspired as some of y'all believe
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it's just like the bible it's subject to
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human interpretation
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and we're still arguing about the bible
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hundreds of years after it came into
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being
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i don't see simple solutions to these
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things
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now then
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as a reporter i've watched how the
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countries dealt
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with what happened here in 1993.
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and i believe that the fbi
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after the standoff the standoff of the
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friedman in montana showed this to me
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has adopted better behaviors
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i don't think
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if another mount carmel comes up
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tomorrow
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you're going to see people killed in the
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way they were here
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the fbi changed its procedures in
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montana
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it did not hold press conferences every
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day
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whose purpose during the waco affair
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was to stir the american people into a
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lynch mob mood that's what they did with
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their press conferences
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in montana they let relatives visit
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the people who were older
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and the relatives told them i don't care
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what you believe you're my son you're
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getting out of here
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long and short
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but they saw that standoff without
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killing anybody
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and they haven't returned to waco style
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tactics in any event i know of since
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but that funny thing happened to me when
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i was writing the book
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about two or three days after mount
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carmel burned
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i brought my wife down to see it
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she's a venezuelan national national
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born and raised in venezuela
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we were walking from the ruins where
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everything was charred
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and she looked at me and said
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i never thought i would see a chance
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to witness what you all did to the
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american indians
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and i said the american indians what's
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that got to do with anything
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and she says
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don't you have a different religion
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if you have different sexual customs
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and if you have weapons
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this government is going to wipe you out
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and i thought what the hell is this
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and then i did some research
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there was a guy called sitting bull
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with them militarily defeated
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and took up a new religion called the
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ghost dance religion
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the ghost dancers call themselves
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christians
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and i have no way of knowing whether or
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not they were because
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i'm not the pope
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and they believe that when jesus came
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back he was going to cover the earth
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with no soil
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and bury all the white people underneath
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and they had guns
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and the cavalry went out
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to a rest sitting bull
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and a shootout developed
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long and shorter that there were no more
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sitting bull
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fortunately they didn't kill a bunch of
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women and children along with him like
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the fbi did
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but i dedicated my book to sitting bull
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because i saw in his death
26:48
a trend
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that led us to narrow for the mormons
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to a dozen invasions to animals in
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panama
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what's this like noriega
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a pattern of behavior where if you
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differ enough
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from
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the ideas of the people who run this
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country we're going to invade you
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and i'm afraid to tell the truth that i
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began to my interest in waco began to
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dim
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when a guy came up in iraq
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who had a different religion
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who was sexually abusive
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and who had
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as the davidians had
27:40
weapons of mass destruction
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of course he didn't have any any more of
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the people here's
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and what did we do
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we say we're going after him
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and we count somewhere between 100 and
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300 000 people
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in the process
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big wake up grand scale wake up
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i think people should pay attention to
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what happened here in that light
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because we could have a norwaiko in
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syria
28:15
iran
28:17
north korea
28:19
tomorrow
28:20
we have leaders who are ignorant
28:24
arrogant
28:25
negligent
28:27
and we know in some since waco may be
28:30
one of them i have never said it was a
28:33
true
28:35
murderous
28:39
so all of us should worry about that
28:43
this country is corrupt
28:46
its laws
28:48
all our loopholes its tax code has
28:51
loopholes
28:54
and the people who defend it
28:56
have guns
28:58
you and me lucky
29:00
that we can gather here
29:04
guess that's about all i have to say
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