Clive Doyle explains the events of the final assault

lobbing incend devices at the storm shelter which that black was like this

much T that we put on it so if it had caught fire I mean that would have been the Inferno right there or if it caught

fire and the kids were in the bus it would have been suck back and filled the bus so you can pick any scenario you

like as to why the kids went there what David like I said at the bottom of this

Tower was a concrete that had been in another building and it had survived a

fire the only difference was at the time it survived the first fire was had a big

metal door like a bank ball David had taken that off in order

to be able to put the walk-in cooler into the Vault for fresh vegetables and

stuff like that course it didn't help us when they cut all the electricity out everything in there

so where are where were the guys firing the machine guns that appear in the [Music]

flare you mean the FBI well or H or the

Delta team combat applications group what you see in the flare T

is the tank comes up to the back and these guys get out and come around of

course this is all partway demolished by that time they're getting into the rubble and they're kind of hiding behind

J you know rubble and stuff and shooting toward the cafeteria here there was a

back door on the cafeteria and uh the story I heard was that there was a woman

and an adult woman a blonde and then maybe a teenager and a smaller

child supposed to have come out the back and uh they were shot at and I don't

know that they were hit but they turned around ran back in there's another story

that uh from up here where the dairy was which is off of this model it's not in

the picture we had a dairy up there which they took over and was using a sniper n uh there was a a radio report

that a guy came out of the cafeteria area and walked through here toward the

back said he had a backpack on and then uh

statement is oh he fell down and then that's the end of the tape

it doesn't say well he fell down but he got back up or we believe that they shot

him we believe it was Jimmy riddle and he was out here the cev that's

demolishing this building uh at one point throws the

track track comes off what they find in the track is uh

some clothing like with a red lining which they said was deal that Jimmy was

wearing and uh so I believe they shot him out the back and then they decided

to bulldozing back in but end up jamming up the track on the CV they had to replace that CV they couldn't use it had

to drag it off and bring another one in and uh Jimmy riddle ends up with uh they

they said oh Jimmy really blew himself up with a hand grenade and shot himself in the head and

he go which did he do first did he blow himself up or did he shoot himself in the head what he had was he had an arm

missing most of this side of his part of his hip I think all of this

one side of him and I think was from being run over by the tank you know uh his sister came to wo

one time shortly after I got out of jail she said

she'd gone up to Fort Worth to to see his body they went up there you know see

if they could identify him basically I guess and so they went to the cor's

office they they open the cooler and pull out his bag and open it up and she

says uh you expect them to see a skeleton or something and you know she says it was like a g of they'd taken

everything apart including the skull all into pieces and so uh when she came back

before with you know I said well you get get to see Jimmy or something like that

she says yeah he's in the trunk she opened the trunk she had to think about this long in the trunk with all the bits

in it so she went we visited her on this last trip uh to South North Carolina

and uh I was thinking you know I asked her

where's Jimmy I was thinking she'd tell me where he's buried you know we we we'd go out to the cemetery

and see where they find laid in in the grave she says oh he's he's in the

bedroom I said what she says when they took him back to

North Carolina they paid some guy some I don't know what he

profession was but they paid him to bleach all the bones and then reconstruct what's left of the skeleton

you know not he's not complete cuz the part's missing she says he's in my

bedroom sound little

gory can't say that I would wish my do that

for well it's like when BoB Kendrick died back you know in

March he and his wife had signed some agreement that their bodies would be given to

science and so a lot of the family got upset you know why couldn't we have a

funeral for and then like normal people I said well would you feel better

he's you put him in the grave he's not going to be there few years or whatever you're going to be eaten by worms and

disintegrate and turn to dust so is it any more respectful to have a basically

an empty box down there or give him to son what what I learned they send him to

some University and they do experiments on him as long as he's kind of

fresh take what they want or do what they want but then whatever when it's over they cremate them and send the

ashes back to the family in a n you know so I guess it's

not that se takes a bit of getting your mind around used to it you

know do you know said he was when the fire started

do you know what location he was in you Rec him same about the church well he was saying

he was up in the upper story or something and said there Fireball we at one point we

were in this building here this one going across so were you near him yeah

okay uh well I don't know about at that particular moment but what what I was doing I I went up these steps that came

up the back which enabled you to get to David's rooms I was sitting at probably

about halfway up the steps because you couldn't go any further because of all this stuff that had come down kind of

blocked them and uh the wall of the gymnasium only went

up like 8 ft this goes up to the ceiling uh it went up like 8 ft and if you went up

these stairs you can look over so I'm standing looking at the tank coming in spraying the gas you know because you

didn't sit there very long CU you don't want the gas on you it's like battery acid so I don't know whether have

climbed over the you know the block you know the stuff that was on the stairs and tried to get it across the uh roof

of the deal but he testified that he got so far and he saw this Fireball go down

this Hall from this end just big Fireball go flying down the hole but

eventually he must have come back because we ended up in the chapel behind

the petition that was filled on the stage and he and I were standing right up as close as we can get to that hole

and we're kind of discussing well if we jump out do you think they'll shoot us cuz right over here with a tank

with a guy outside with a AK-47 or whatever and we're thinking you know if

we jump out will they shoot us so while we're hesitating because people were

coming from other parts of the building and coming around behind the petition uh

in behind she might say so every time we'd hear somebody we'd spin around as we it was also FBI or what so there was

a slight moment of hesitation for a while but while we're still deciding

what we ought to do all this smoke come down the outside of the building to the hole we were looking out and it got

sucked in and that's when everything turned black and you know all this heat over your head you couldn't see any

Flames but immediately it got black you know I felt all this heat up in the

ceiling and it kind of just pushed me down on the ground so so you both came out in that

area there I thought when I came out I was the only one I never heard or saw anybody

leave and technically like I said Tibido and I were standing the closest to the

hole and there was maybe eight or nine other people behind us did any of them

get out three of them walk right past me or over me or something while I'm rolling around on the floor I so what

point did you come out of on the end of the okay where were the

TV cameras which ones I don't know I mean they had like the TV Camera camp that

was 2 miles away the only one it would have been right back here somewhere

initially they got a shot of you coming got they did get a shot you coming out probably had their

telescopic there only one thing wrong with they kept pushing the media

back there was media that came in on the day of the raid they were right behind the trucks yeah so they took closeup

stuff then they moved them back down to the intersection like a half a mile away

then they moved them another mile away then eventually I think they were almost down to oh downtown not downtown but

like 8 or n miles away and uh so they were building these huge big towers with

telescopic lands and what happens when you when you do that I've seen pictures people come to me what's going on here

you know what's all these buildings that outside your front door I'm G there were

no buildings out you know and you realize that stuff on the farm across the road all that stuff's being pushed

right up because of the telescopic lens it don't push is it all together so you

look like you got Barns and and sheds and buildings and stuff right sitting in

your front yard you know I saw there was some people that had a u oh yeah had a

uh a theory that uh after the fire was over

that the FBI came in and seated the place with a bunch of burnt guns I don't know whether you heard that story and

I I don't know about that but then I wasn't there after the bu you know and

so they showed me this picture it looked like a big old semi pulled up with its

back up against the swimming pool he said see they they po right there

unloading and I mean it kind of looked convincing but the truck wasn't there CU

see this is out of proportion here cuz this water tow was right on the corner

of the swimming pool okay and and uh you couldn't have

got around here without you know falling in this hole and all this sort of stuff

what about the shot of all the weapons they said you know that you all had what

about that shot because they were like displaying that after in the vault yeah

they had a lot of guns the shot that they're showing you is inside the ball like I said in the

presentation when the when uh Kathy schro handed all these people guns

and David Hood guns put back so we took them back to the Vault and because I've

never been in there before I didn't even know they existed The Vault The Vault

existed but I didn't know okay because originally see the reason they ATF went

up on the roof and broke into David's former rooms CU they thought you know

one was his bedroom and one was the armory they thought yeah but he hadn't been there for months and months and

months he wasn't sleeping there and he the guns weren't there so show so show

us the roof that the agents climbed up on on and tried to CL through the window against the side of the church and they

climbed up here two or three of them went over the hump and were I guess

trying to break into that window and three of them went into this window and one guy sat

outside and and it looks like he get shot you know he kind rolls over he's not wounded at all I guess he was just

reacting he eventually runs back over and slides down the ladder and goes away

but they claim that one of the guys uh the lead the leader of the three that

went in this window that said in court that in all likelihood he shot his own

guy cuz he was just spraying bullets and trying to Ricochet them off the sheet rck and all that sort of

nonsense you know so but they all got out none not to my knowledge none none

of the ones that came up on the roof or or um went into the bedroom or the other

empty room uh died now there was the one guy on this side that got

shot and rolled off into the yard here and he laid there for quite a while

until we got the ceasefire and you know greed upon and

they finally sent agents around the back and picked him up and took him off so

okay and which roofs had helicopter fire sent into them

no I'd say the tower okay there may have been some in in this part of the building too they

were shooting up the tower and uh they may have also been aiming

David's room thinking thinking that he was still there I don't know but

uh you know you can't tell if the helicopters are over here shooting this way and guys out here are shooting this

way you got guys Climbing Up on the Roof who knows who shot what you know got

shot by what and about how and about how long before the raid did the helicopter

start shooting I don't know when they started shooting uh they were

circling circling the property you know going around circles for like probably almost a half an hour

before the guys came down the driveway and at some point they started

shooting I'd say once the trucks got there I think that that's probably when they started shooting okay well that was

before anybody opened the front door yeah yeah yeah if you you know when

Katherine was alive she used to always always say she was up here on the second floor in the back and

she used to always talk about the helicopter shooting shooting and they shot first and all of this stuff and I'm

going well that's not my experience I was down here on the first floor in the front and the first shots I hear at the

front door you know so depending on where you were in the building as to what your experience was she's in the

back she's looking at them stuff like that you know it's just like one of the

girls that was in this end of the building uh said she went into the her

room and two girls were standing at the window looking out and she wondered what they were looking at so she walked over

and looked out the window on this side and she says the helicopter's practically in her face and scared the

Daylights out of her and she said the next thing the window breaks she couldn't tell whether they

actually shot she said it looked to her like one guy was hanging out of the

helicopter with a gun but when they cross examined her they tried to make it sound like she didn't know what she was

talking about well couldn't it have been a camera you sure he wasn't just taking pictures you know and then by the time

they got through it she wasn't real sure but like I say they didn't throw the camera through the window something

broke the window you know what I'm saying so so and where were the dogs that got shot right here this this area

was panned off they if you come around this side you can see a little dog house yeah there's a little dog house here

this this um flag p is in the wrong place it should be over here in the Ard where the

dogs were so were the dog pin be within sight of agents that approach the front door oh yeah but they couldn't get at

them there's a fence I know but I'm talking about whether the agents that approached the front door might have

thought that the their fellow Ag and shooting the dogs were people inside shooting at

them well one of the agents that got out of

the first truck when they heard the shooting instead of running around the back like

some of them did because that was their job to get get around the back the

minute they heard the shooting start they duck behind a van that was parked across the driveway here and three of

them crawled in the back of the van basically kept their heads down they said well so you didn't shoot you didn't

participate and they said no if you're surprised and everything is

compromised you're supposed to back off you know and so they they just hunker

down they says well where did you hear the shooting from they said the front door area and they they says well what

were you thinking when you heard that and they said we figured it was our guys taking care of the dogs so the people on

the raid knew primarily the plan what each group was supposed to do they may

not have practiced it with them to way they all were on the same page so the plan with 70 plus

agents at different areas around the building was that there was someone assigned to take out the dogs apparently

a team a team assigned to take out the dog so they are live firing with all these agents around who are not in good

communication with each other so they're hearing live live routes being fired

most of the teams from what I remember the trial most of the teams were like three man teams so if if that was the

case you might have three guys commissioned to take care of the B

now they testified at first that the plan was to to squirt

uh what do you call the FL your gas not

not twoo guy but the spray out of a fire hiding thing not a Fire HD but one of

those canisters you know they were going to just keep them away with that but apparently the dogs kept on Bing so they

decided to just take them out by shooting them so you had the the team taking care of the dogs you

had balleras and maybe two others running for the front

door team went round couple of team went around here and got up on the roof you

also had teams running all the way to the back or over here to supposedly

rescue the old ladies you know that weren't in the trailer you know plus she

had teams running around this end they ran into problems see they put

Livingston on trial because some of the guys that ran around the back their

testimony was when they got to the back they saw three guys in black uniforms

with masks over their face and their initial reaction was oh

they're our guys says but then these three guys fired at them so they roll down

into this ditch over here or something like that they're trying to keep their heads down apparently their testimony was there

were two white guys and a black guy with these Mass on nobody ever tried to figure out who

the two white guys were like I said their initial reaction was these are our

guys but they claimed that they shot at him so they decided to they the

description was the black guy was a tall black man and Livingston's a little skinny guy you know but he's the only

black guy that survived from inside and he came out during The Siege

on March 21 did you have any tall black guys

yeah one of the ones who died in the five yeah yeah we don't men names of

people that died they might have but uh is it is it possible that thing is

Livingston was a guinea P he's the only black prisoner or captive they got so

they're going to they're going to make him the shooter and so in the court

there was two or three of us when we start hearing the way it was going against Livingston we said to our

lawyers why don't you tell them you know why don't you put

us on the stand and we'll testify that Livingston wasn't out the back CU we saw

him somewhere else in the building during the shooting you know and

so the lawyers at some point I think they asked the judge U if we could

testify about Livingston and he says wouldn't do any good they they're not

allowed to testify they're codefendants so it he says well I ask

for a separate trial for Livingston since you know he's being charged with a specific incident

you know have a separate trial for him instead of a like a class action type

suit you know have it all separate he wouldn't do that he says he

says they test them on with only be self- serving I said all testimony is

self- serving whether it's a government giving testimony or whether it's everybody Serv didn't have any self

serving everybody's self serving when you're giving testimony you're either for or against you know we got to win

this down okay so uh Livingston went through the trial basically

that's what got him you know that they wanted a guinea pig that was black they

wanted to blame me with the fire my lawyer told me that partway through the TR he said they're going to they're

going to hang the fire on you and I says why they said well they your hands

are burnt and they figure you lit the fire I says well a lot of people in there are burnt how do you know they weren't closer to the matches than I was

right you know so then almost two3 of the way he says uh they're not going to

charge you they're not going to go after you for the fire I says why not what what changed say mind he supp have got

no evidence you know but then when I went to the Congressional hearings in

Washington the fire one of the fire guys they had fire analysis or whatever he

point point blank pointed at me said he's the one who live the

fire even though I knew it was wrong it shook me up he says they they asked him

how why do you think Mr Doyle let the fight he said well he's got burned hands and he he's got

U he had Burns right through to his knuckles down to the bone on these two

Knuckles and they said uh and he tested for fuel you know and so that bothered

me even though I knew it wasn't correct it bothered me that he just point blank

named me you know and I thought about it and thought about it and all of a sudden I remembered years before I had cut

myself putting lolium or a tile in a bathroom trying to cut it to go around

the toilet you know and it slipped and cut me right through here and uh I

thought that's why it burned worse on these two Knuckles than the rest of the

hand it's because it's just Scar Tissue you know it was soft tissue now there are

some uncertain reports that there might have been agents that went into the

buildings before the fire either for surveillance or to set the fires would

there be been a possibility for in Outsiders to intrude that way without

the rest of you knowing it I think it's highly

unlikely I've heard stories there were stories floating around when I got out of jail saying that uh some kind of SWAT

team or uh you know had gone in there

with black uniforms on and masks and had shot all of the what they considered the

ring leaders you know David and these henchmen as they put it and I says where

are you getting this information oh we we're getting this from a reliable source I

says well uh your reliable source is not reliable I

said you can't say that I says well I was there you know for one thing I said

and if if the way you tell the story David and Steve and maybe Wayne Martin

and all of this would all be dead like at 10:00 in the morning cuz sounded like

they went in there early according to the story and I says I know for a fact I saw David three times that

day you know I saw Wayne M was standing right beside me here behind this

petition at the time the fire stops you know when I'm rolling around

on the floor I can hear guys screaming behind me further in the building and uh

I knew who some of them were so Wayne Martin wasn't shot as a

ring leader or lieutenant or whatever label you want to put on him he was over

here amongst the ones that died and I said I'm just glad that the four of us that came out of

here and Graham of course was in the Chanel he went out of window and climb

went all the way over to this building next to the water tower and hunk it down apparently they didn't see him because

it was all smoke and everything he went in there it wasn't until the whole thing was over he come come out scared the

Daylights out of him they thought he was coming out of some tunnel you know and uh but anyway four of us came out this

same hole and I said I'm just glad what they

found after the fire they went in there and retrieved the other bodies that not one of them had a bullet hole in them CU

they would have said we shot them and then ran off you know what I'm saying they'd have blamed us for killing them

but they all died of smoke ination of the fire there were also reports of

surveillance devices planted inside the building is that possible and how could it have been done surveillance devices

planted inside the building listen devices they had uh they had all kinds

of Technology they used on us heat seeking you know infrared or whatever Imaging type

deals that revealed where each all of us were that was the whole purpose I believe all the ramming they did was to

isolate us into Pockets to where we couldn't communicate back and forth you

know they they pushed all of these walls all these bedroom walls here I push back into the

Hall to where the hall was blocked along here on the first floor from all the tub

fors and stuff that they ran you know just pushed ahead of the of the tank and

so they they weren't planning on people getting out in fact I I heard one tap and I think it was a tape from upstairs

somewhere where somebody saying well let's go this way you know like trying

to get out and he hear this other voice saying can't the whole you know it's

blocked can't can't get down this hole or something to that effect

so uh Clyde were you uh aware at some point that uh they had called Parkland

Hospital Burn Unit and check the morning of April 19th about the a ability of

burn beds their apartment I didn't know it at the time not

sure heard that or not course by the time I got up there there were two other

women ahead of me they were already there Audrey Thomas

and and Rita Riddle's daughter his

Fus so I probably talk longer but I guess

they wanted to wrap it up so would it be untrue to say that the

uh there were no dogs shot after the first

ceasefire there were no more dogs well there were there were more I had a dog in inside with me during the siege that

had pups the at least one of the documentaries out there available says

that you know until they called the ceasefire and then you know they start back up with their blaring music and

they're running over the cars with the tanks and then they shoot the dogs no

these dogs were shot right at the beginning of this of the shootout two your knowledge five

were there children injured in the initial February [Music] 28th no uh Linda Thompson put out a

video called the big lie which was manipul she may had good

intentions but most of that was garbage she's the one that said they had the flame throwing tank and all of that I've

I've got with the guy that gave her the video and uh when you look at the video

in its fullness you know just from one end to the other the tank goes in and

then it backs out and it comes over here somewhere and you can see this stuff on

it looks like it Flames but the next thing some guy gets out of the back comes around and brushes

it all off I guess it was blocking that view and I'm going that's not Flames that's either foil or something catching

the sunlight or whatever so that but she manipulated the video to where she

didn't play it from start to finish she she played it going in and out and in and out and in and out you know and and

it it does it looks like PL then then she had a picture of some agents

carrying a bundle over that shoulder and said that was Cyrus he'd been shot on the first day David's son you know and

uh that wasn't true I saw Cirus on the Saturday before the

fire he's the only one that came Vis I was sick in bed and he came and visited

me and uh he was the last kid I saw the

day before I know he wasn't dead on day

one like I say David wasn't dead anytime early in the

morning here's the thing if if the team went in and shot David and all these

guys and then they turn around and say well we gave the David gave the orders

to burn the building down you know who's giving the orders if he's already dead

or if Steve's dead or if Wayne's dead which like I say is not true so you get

all kinds of stories of it when I first got out of jail there were people calling me up well I was sitting up at

the dairy and I saw this and I I said would you be willing to testify to that incl oh no I can't do that they tear me

apart cuz I've got a record and you know they bring my past up and disel anything I said I said well

that's interesting but no help to us you know now General Parton um was giving uh

testimony at at one of the memorials talking about a satchel charge that was placed on top of the uh Vault after this

is all burned down there's a picture shown of the roof of the you know the top of the Vault and

there's a hole in there and the Vault was made with uh reinforced

concrete re and stuff in and so the bu the buy all face in

so I don't know who or what did what you

know it's possible some point a lot a lot of the children that died besides being boiled

and and cooked you might say some of them had blunt force trauma which could

have been the concrete falling on or what consistent with Gordon

call what they did can you talk just briefly about what it was like being in jail in

jail tell I'm talking about that before by the when I was up at Park in hospital

the head head nurse or whoever she was kept sh me cuz I was in in ankle chains

the whole time I was there m and uh skin dripping off of you my hands were

wrapped like footballs I couldn't walk cuz they took all the skin off this leg to do the

grass so every night you'd be laying there and the leg would kind of drawer

up you know so when you woke up in the morning trying to get the leg back down so you can stand up and I had two ATF

agents outside the door the whole time I said to the nurse I say I'm not going

anywhere the windows don't open I can't walk you know I got big footballs on my

hand and so uh the uh what was your question again about

the about what it was like in in jail oh so anyway they kept assuring me don't

worry about these guys we're not going to let them do anything to you our main concern is that you get well blah blah

blah blah blah so I was there three weeks and they're still telling me this all along then one

day she comes in she said there are two Federal Marshals want to see see

you so that she lets them in they come in with a blue

jumpsuit today I put this on first of all I thought I was being transferred to

another facility you know put this on and get taken out and

put in a patrol car and we drive all the way to w we in

KAS CU I've got these buns so I never get a an arm band with a number on it I never

get fingerprinted you know so

uh they put me in after they booked me they put me in the nurses quarters which

was basically solitary only one person to sell pretty

much the cell they put me in it had Kathy schroer in it it had a TV in it

and they said that they had been showing her videos trying to get her to identify

people well the video thing wasn't there but the TV was still there we got wrap it up live okay I'll

wrapped up so uh I uh you freezing to death in it's bitly

cold and you tell them can't you adjust the Thad you know they just laugh you

know so uh I was there from

early part of May until June just before they took me out they

actually they took me out of the one I was in and put me in the one next door which had Paul fed in so the two of us

are in there for maybe a week and then uh you know when you go in they got this Blackboard with all the rules and stuff

on it you can have two showers a week and you can have Recreation and you have

access to the L library and you have access to the other Library you never see any of that you're lucky

to get a shower I think I had a shower once in several weeks and we complained about

them they didn't listen to us and then somebody else put in a complaint on our

behalf and they come they real mad I says it's not our fault if you stink you

people didn't have water out there at Mount so if you know if you don't feel

clean that's that's that's not our fault but they did let us take a sh the sh was right across from that door

you and so we ended up I guess in June they sent us

upstairs into what they call general population and

uh they we didn't do too back we figured we were

game you know they would too show

stand we were terrorist know I'm and so when we

got by the time we got sent down toan

an in record gone ahead so we went in they all

said what you talking about talking about

Paul so they they were all somewhat you know respectful all us up

to a point there's a couple of times black beat on

us that it didn't happen you were in jail a

year no The Raid took place on February

28th 51 days I come out I was in hospital in Chains with guards outside

the door for 3 weeks I came down to county

until November they took us all down and we had trial from January

through February and I got out so I say c for you

yeah give the

attorney's walk