Up next in 10
Joe Banister, FES Austin, 2012/12/15
Jun 5, 2025
Former IRS agent Joseph Banister discusses what he has learned about the illegality of much of what the IRS does, at the Free Enterprise Society meeting at Austin, Texas, Dec. 15, 2012.
View Video Transcript
0:00
listen to uh any claims like the kind that she made but she made them on a radio show hosted by a guy named Jeff
0:06
metf and he was very very truthful he wasn't you know agenda driven except his
0:12
agenda was just about the Constitution and about being truthful and I like that can you imagine an IRS agent actually
0:18
liking somebody that's truthful and likes the Constitution but that's why I didn't fit in there very well came to
0:25
find out more later anyway uh one of the things I wanted to share with you you to
0:30
just give you some idea about uh really the scam that the the income tax is uh
0:38
there are legitimate functions there you know the somebody that will tell you that the income tax laws are
0:44
unconstitutional uh I disagree with and I think anyone that's worth their salt in the tax movement would disagree with
0:51
it too what happens is they have laws on the books that are absolutely
0:56
constitutional but over the decades the government uh specifically the IRS and the Congress
1:03
really have made the public thing that think they've conditioned the public to
1:08
think that these laws apply to everyone and how many people have actually dug in
1:13
to all the Internal Revenue code and the code of federal regulations okay a few
1:18
yeah Larry has uh and you know this is a this would be a crowd of people who if anybody
1:24
would try it it'd be you right but it's difficult they're thick where do you get them you know it's difficult you got
1:31
your own lives to lead anyway uh so this I want this to be kind of at least an
1:37
illustration of what a scam is going on here in the
1:42
IRS and this is back when I worked there they've done some reshuffling of the deck so but but my my position is if it
1:51
was a scam in 1997 and 1998 you know what have they done in the
1:57
last 10 years to not make it a scam anyway uh in the IRS they have a bureau
2:03
or a division called the criminal investigation division can everybody see that okay I don't I don't think I can
2:10
make it any bigger but they also have a bureau or division in the IRS called criminal
2:19
investigation now the criminal investigation division with what this is
2:24
is basically just a little flowchart that I put together a little chart and it shows that in this section up here
2:31
this talks about the criminal investigation Division and down here we talk about
2:37
criminal investigation try to compare and contrast those
2:43
two entities those two divisions within the IRS so I do have it try to make it a
2:49
little bigger I think in the future slides all right so notice that I have these little
2:57
numbers here I got irm 11 32 and irm 1134 well the irm is the internal
3:04
revenue manual okay and that is uh basically the Bible that the IRS agents use to to
3:12
understand what they're supposed to do in their job okay and so back when I worked at the IRS before everything was
3:18
digitized we actually would have a book called the internal revenue manual and it was huge you have different parts
3:24
that would relate to what you did so the criminal investigation division that I work for
3:30
use part nine of the internal revenue manual so Within part nine you have
3:36
these section 1134 and 11:32 they're two distinct
3:41
sections of the internal revenue manual now in 1132 there's information about the
3:49
assistant commissioner International and in 11:34 there's
3:55
information about the assistant commissioner for criminal investigation so keep that in mind 1132 versus
4:02
1134 we're going to compare and contrast so in irm
4:09
1134 which deals with the assistant commissioner criminal
4:17
investigation notice that and what I did is I took this uh wording verbatim from
4:24
the internal revenue manual rather than having you read from the manual but I'll show you the manual pages in SE the
4:30
criminal investigation mission is to Foster voluntary
4:39
compliance and ensure public confidence through the in the effective enforcement
4:44
of criminal statutes Rel relative to Tax Administration financial crimes it
4:49
accomp accomplishes the criminal investigation Mission notice how it doesn't say division say criminal
4:56
investigation mission of enforcement by developing and
5:03
supervising planned periodic visitation programs Nationwide programs investigations sued pral violations of
5:10
such laws so what they basically they're talking about studying here doing
5:16
studies statistics and evaluating what someone
5:21
else is doing and you'll see that more clearly in a second and by the way so
5:26
this is just to show you you can't see it very well but that that language comes right out of the
5:33
internal revenue manual I made copies of that before I
5:38
left and same I mean the language is right there that's it's not me making it
5:45
up all right so then we were talking about 1134 with the assistant Commissioner of
5:51
criminal investigation now wouldn't you think that a criminal investigation component of the IRS would be hide um
5:58
headed up by some someone assistant commissioner for criminal investigation wouldn't that make sense well look
6:04
there's this other guy could have been a gal that's called the assistant commissioner
6:14
International and they have descriptions about the mission of the International International functional
6:20
responsibilities and look at this there's a criminal investigation division that's underneath the assistant
6:27
commissioner International
6:36
and look what they are supposed to be doing the special agency the criminal investigation division administers the
6:42
internal revenue laws and related statutes as they relate to US citizens residing
6:49
abroad and non-resident aliens deriving income from sources within the United
6:54
States now look at how much more you know running and gunning kind of descript goes on here for these guys
7:01
that work internationally the criminal investigation division enforces criminal
7:06
statutes applicable to income estate gift employment excise tax law involving United States citizens residing in
7:13
foreign countries and nonresident Aliens subject to Federal incomea filing
7:18
requirements talk about investigating and preparation these are like actual handson duties that you have going on
7:27
but this is in under the international component of the
7:33
IRS so why is it that and again I just want to show you that they really that's really what it
7:40
says in the internal revenue
7:45
manual so inquiring minds want to ask well who did Joe actually work for did he work
7:52
for the criminal investigation component or the criminal investigation division component well here is some paperwork
7:59
from one of my promotions and I was promoted
8:06
it says grade 12 step two okay name and location of positions
8:14
organization okay criminal investigation Division and I was a criminal
8:24
investigator see it says gs1 1811 that's what I mean when I say an IRS special
8:30
agent an FBI special agent Secret Service special agent they're all gs1 1811s so the federal government views
8:38
criminal investigators of all these alphabet suit agencies as the same so I worked for the criminal
8:44
investigation Division and had I looked at the manual the internal revenue manual back when I
8:51
started rather than when I was leaving I might have realized that the you know my
8:58
function to be legitimate would have been traveling quite a bit over to Italy maybe take in a Andrea belli concert
9:05
while I'm there but actually be investigating uh Americans who are over there and should be paying their income
9:12
tax in one way or another so these are internal IRS manuals and documents that
9:19
and this is just a small slice and Larry's going to go into this later as well for more of the jurisdictional
9:24
reasons why the IRS has to be so careful about creating two criminal
9:30
investigation components now you know how many how many Americans do you think know that that that went on for decades
9:36
it's still goes on but they have reshuffled the deck since the restructuring Reform Act in the late
9:43
90s just you can see that a little better criminal investigation Division I worked in the central California
9:53
District all right so and again because of time I've got to uh fast forward through things uh as I mentioned I I
10:01
work I spent about two years investigating these claims um you know my entire professional life revolved
10:09
around the income tax before I went into the IRS I had to earn my CPA certificate so I was helping clients preparing you
10:16
know hundreds of thousands of tax returns reviewing them um and you know
10:22
realizing that the private sector accountant was a pretty boring job you know it took me a while to figure that
10:28
out but and as you can see with those pictures you know I had all these relatives who were having much more fun
10:35
or you know enjoying their careers much more being in law enforcement so that's why I went in that direction and I
10:40
expected to uh you know spend a full 20-year career doing that kind of work but hearing this uh information on the
10:47
radio show and then being naive enough to pursue it try to figure out what was
10:52
going on uh it took me about two years of part-time off-duty research uh and I talked to many many
10:59
people that you might know in the in the tax movement Bill Benson Bill Conlin uh
11:05
Steve hempling who's hosting this event uh Larry bcft who you're going to see speaking here and they weren't you know
11:12
they were being U allowing me to speak with them without saying I've been talking with a real IRS
11:18
agent giving me time to accumulate all this information and evidence so that I
11:24
could make my own decision about what what the truth was well it came to a point uh um after this two-year period
11:31
it was about January February of 1999 and I realized that uh there was so much
11:38
truth to what I was Finding and again I didn't like create something new I was simply validating information and
11:46
research that had already existed for decades you know so standing on the shoulders of others a gentleman talked
11:51
about Irwin Schiff uh you know the research the painstaking research that
11:56
that other people have done throughout the decades to try to you know blow the trumpet to the American people that you
12:03
know this this T income tax system is a scam so I just went out and was trying to validate as best I could uh in a in a
12:11
nutshell I I gathered together some of the highlights of what I had encountered
12:17
during that two-year period and uh presented it to my supervisors at the IRS I gave it to my immediate group
12:24
manager Bob gini um gentleman who actually ended up testifying my future
12:30
trial and then I asked him if he could give it up the chain of command up to and including the commissioner of the
12:36
IRS so that I could get my questions answered and I didn't call up the media and say hey I've got this report and
12:42
I've sent it up the chain of command and make a big deal about it I went in and did what I believed was my
12:48
duty uh both not only just a legal Duty uh because I'd taken an oath to support
12:53
and defend the Constitution because the treasury rules of conduct are very clear
12:59
about what you're actually supposed to do when you encounter any kind of fraud waste or abuse uh the IRS commissioner
13:05
at the time had actually sent a memo to every IRS employee and said if you
13:10
encounter fraud waste or abuse you're supposed to report it you're supposed to speak up so I
13:17
absolutely was doing what the you know what they were telling me I was supposed to do I realized in the back of my mind
13:24
they're probably not going to like this too much but I'm sincere you know they they they trust me to carry a gun and a
13:30
badge around even on airplanes because this was prior to the Patriot Act uh I was flying to Atlanta doing all kinds of
13:38
Investigations Arizona uh and you could fly armed and this was you know before all the
13:43
freakout that occurred after 911 so I gave my report to my
13:49
supervisors and they looked at me like I had two heads and did told me they weren't going to answer any of my
13:55
questions and told me to to hit the road to just get out uh
14:01
and I did I thought that that would be the safest because not that I was afraid for my safety or anything but basically
14:07
I had a pretty good reputation and you know how it is when you encounter someone who has a good reputation you
14:13
tend to believe what they have to say but if they have a bad reputation you're like I don't think I believe you so I
14:19
had a good reputation and I wanted to keep it and I felt that I I trusted basically the the people I worked with
14:25
but I didn't trust the agency after all I was learning about all their dastardly Deeds so I did go ahead and resign in
14:32
February of 1999 can't believe how long that's been uh for about two years 2000 and 2001
14:42
there was quite a bit of um media attention and certainly not mainstream I didn't get any call from Tom broka or
14:49
Peter Jennings or Dan Rather but there was a lot of Internet attention uh
14:55
eventually it led to uh New York Times article an appearance
15:00
on 60 Minutes 2 I don't even know if they have 60 Minutes to you the 60
15:06
Minutes the main Flagship and then they have 60 minutes too so Al Thompson my client and I were on 60 Minutes too and
15:14
I'm pretty certain that once the attention got to the point of mainstream
15:19
media that's when the government had had enough because if it gets to mainstream media then that means that mainstream
15:25
people are are learning things and when you get to that point I can
15:31
tell you it's uh you can kind of slide downhill from there because at that point the IRS is thinking uh that that
15:39
old saying this town ain't big enough for the both of us this Joe banister guy can't be going around saying that the
15:46
income tax is a scam and yet we're the IRS and we're enforcing and administering this tax somebody's not
15:52
telling the truth well we know that it's got to be Joe not telling the truth couldn't be the IRS and the status
16:00
quo so in 2001 I found out shortly thereafter that they they the IRS
16:07
started a criminal investigation against me and fast forwarding to November of
16:14
2004 that culminated that investigation culminated in an indictment against me
16:20
and my client Al Thompson and they had a huge bunch of stuff going on here but
16:25
basically as it applied to me I was indicted on three counts of preparing a
16:33
false amended tax return and one count of
16:40
conspiracy and that was in November 2004 when the indictment came out and uh I
16:45
got arrested by my colleagues that I used to work
16:56
with what's kind of funny about the arrest is that when I was working at the IRS I wasn't I didn't talk much about my
17:03
look into the income tax system but I was very uh open about my beliefs about the Constitution and specifically the
17:10
Second Amendment and so in my cubicle I had bumper stickers and you probably seen them on the road especially here in
17:17
Texas uh uh gun control works the experts agree and it's a picture of
17:22
ma um Castro you know Stalin and Hitler those are the
17:30
four um and you know similar type bumper stickers and I had them in my in my
17:35
cubicle so whenever we would go out for training and you know our training remember I showed you that gun with the
17:41
laser in it we also had guns that we put a barrel in with soap pellets and they hurt and so they would
17:48
always make me the tax protester in the training because you know if you if you have any concept of the Constitution
17:54
well you must be one of those creepy tax protesters so they made me the the tax protester and were constantly shooting
18:00
me with these soap pellets uh cuz you know of course the scenario would be not to cooperate you know cuz tax protesters
18:07
and citizens never cooperate so uh anyway when they arrested me it was
18:13
almost like just a training scenario I just went through the same things that I went through and thank they had real
18:18
guns then of course so uh you know but I just did what I normally do you know put your hands out get cuffed kneel down
18:25
they didn't have to give me any instructions because I was just doing it all automatically
18:30
anyway as far as the indictment uh as I say I was indicted um charged with
18:36
conspiring with my client to the fraud of the United States of America and preparing these false amended tax
18:43
returns for three different years well when you get indicted it's a good idea to look into how to defend
18:51
yourself and so there were uh there's not a lot of attorneys out there and you
18:57
probably know this who are competent enough um knowledgeable enough to know
19:04
about the intricacies of these these tax laws and when you're charged with a crime and U many of you may know of a
19:10
guy named Jeffrey dickstein he's been in the tax movement a long time well Jeff said hey okay we got to get going here
19:17
and and defend yourself I want you to send me all of your
19:24
research so I sent him 18 boxes of my research now there was some
19:29
photocopy there were some duplicate copies that went into that but uh it was taller than him so at least he could
19:36
tell that his client was serious about defending himself uh again got to got to run
19:43
through things quickly U because we got a lot of other great speakers here uh but some of the highlights the
19:49
prosecutor he tried to disqualify one of my defense attorneys and Bob bernhoft who's going to actually be speaking to
19:55
you later today for a few minutes uh they the Friday before the Monday when the trial was supposed to start uh the
20:03
prosecution filed a motion with the judge to eject Bob bernhoft off my defense team and I I had two defense
20:10
attorneys and it you know necessary to have uh two heads on that and they tried
20:15
to get rid of one of them and thankfully they weren't successful but here we were ready to take the weekend you know
20:22
working 24 24 hours a day on preparing because the trial was just around the corner you know that feeling you get
20:28
you're preparing for a test and you wish you had started earlier you know it's no different uh so we had to fight that you
20:36
know typical strategic uh dirty tricks to make you fight some other
20:42
alternative battle when you want to concentrate on defending yourself but they had a 28-year veteran IRS agent and
20:50
he got up on their witness stand and Incredibly I wasn't surprised because I knew what I prepared I knew that it was
20:56
all according to hoil that it was was verbatim from the law uh when I had to refer reference
21:03
certain law sections in the tax returns and yet this 28-year veteran he gets up there and boasts about you know how long
21:10
he's been doing this and everything he knows but he couldn't point out a single thing that was false in the tax returns
21:17
that they claimed I prepared falsely they had government witness
21:22
after government witness and they would probably they told my attorneys told me kind of unusual because sometimes they
21:29
don't want to ask a question not they don't like they won't like the answer or
21:34
they're not sure what the answer will be but in my case they were after looking at all the evidence you know those boxes
21:40
I showed you they were so certain that I did everything you know just like like
21:47
the accountant would and perfectly that they could ask these open-ended questions and just go right to the heart
21:53
of the matter so they would ask them you know did you see any conspiracy go on
21:58
did you ever see Al Thompson and Joe bister are talking about X Y or Z did you ever see any
22:04
documentation and witness after witness after witness said
22:09
no and they even asked the uh the special agent the guy who came and arrested me and did the
22:15
investigation did you see any evidence of a conspiracy and the guy who studied
22:21
my life for three years said no so the jury is just what why are we here why
22:28
are we here you you can't bring a single government witness that can that point out anything bad or criminal but not
22:35
only that the jurors actually told
22:41
me after the trial that they said Joe How come every time the government
22:46
brought something up it made you look so good I said well a lot of what they brought up was actually my own work
22:53
papers you know accountants they have a lot of backup for what they submit to the government because they might get called on it and uh so the government
23:00
actually subpoena all of my work papers so a lot of the evidence they used I
23:05
guess because they had nothing better they had no other game they tried to put up these you know letters that I wrote
23:11
on behalf of my client and the jury's like wow I wish my CPA would go to bat for me like that so it just totally blew
23:18
up in the government's face um I think I mentioned this before the Case Investigator which would have been Sean
23:23
bresin the special agent that I used to work with he testified he encountered no evidence the IRS was ever impeded
23:30
impaired or obstructed uh we called only one witness who I mentioned earlier Bob
23:35
gini my immediate supervisor at the IRS as a character witness and his his
23:40
testimony was videotaped interestingly enough because the moment that
23:45
we disclosed that we wanted to call him as a witness he had retired from the IRS
23:51
and he was going to be on a plane to Iraq to work for the inspector General's
23:56
office at you know you heard of the double dipping where you do your career you get your retirement and then you go
24:01
work somewhere else well he was doing that but his assignment was to go to Iraq and monitor the government
24:08
contractors and you know how much fraud is going on over there with all the
24:14
wars so uh we had to literally dickstein had to fly to DC and depose him and get
24:21
a deposition before he got on a military transport plane for Iraq and you can imagine trying to do the deposition in
24:28
Iraq it would have never happened so thankfully we got it in time uh I heard you know found out after the trial not
24:34
one juror ever voted for conviction during any of the deliberation polling you ever been on a jury or know how that
24:40
works you know they're going to take a poll where are we at you know does anybody think he's guilty do anybody think he's innocent uh well no one no
24:48
one ever had to be convinced you know that I that I was not
24:53
guilty uh and then one of the two prosecutors didn't even show up for the verdict made me wonder you know what
24:59
they what they saw ahead of time that uh all right so how we doing on time all
25:07
right all right well now this is a an interesting interesting thing that came up in the trial and uh it was completely
25:14
we weren't prepared for it at all I'm going try to give you a little background and hopefully it'll make
25:20
sense uh when when you're when you're an IRS special agent you know obviously you do your
25:25
investigation you write a report about your investigation and then you're going to if it's worthy
25:31
of being prosecuted you have to find a prosecutor well the Department of Justice has a division called the tax
25:38
division and their focus their expertise is tax is income tax
25:44
primarily and so while I was working at the IRS you know and I was actually doing work U
25:52
doing my cases I had a particular tax case that involved or or um there was a
25:58
need to get a Department of Justice tax division attorney that would prosecute
26:04
the case that I investigated okay and that guy's name was Tom D Leonardo he
26:10
was the prosecutor on one of my cases while I worked at the IRS well after I
26:17
left the IRS in 1999 it was about uh I think it was in 200 yeah 2001 see how
26:24
that date on that email says Tuesday April 17th 2001 so what Tom is doing here is he's
26:30
writing a message to his boss and the message that he's writing is that he and
26:37
I encountered each other at the San Jose IRS office about two years after I
26:43
left and uh you know he recognized me I recognized him of course I had already become this you know
26:50
Pariah uh he was well aware of it because everybody in the IRS and the doj were certainly talking about it so we
26:57
come to come to face each other there at the foyer of the IRS building in San Jose and we talk you know how are you
27:04
but then he said you know it's really too bad that you decided to give up what you had and hang around with all these
27:11
greedy people so his mindset was that people like us uh adhere to these beliefs or
27:19
look into these beliefs because we just are greedy we want to figure out some way to not pay our fair share that's
27:25
that was his mindset well my response was Tom uh you
27:30
got me all wrong and you got my friends all wrong I said yes I'm sure there are people out there
27:35
who do you know they just want to find any excuse to not pay tax but there's
27:41
also a really large group of people and the people that I like to hang hang around with who realize that this is a
27:48
principled matter okay the property that we earn every day it's ours first right
27:55
I mean even the Communists will probably agree it starts out being ours so there has to be some mechanism that makes it
28:03
theirs and there are there are principled people uh that are like that and so it's it's wrong for you to assert
28:11
that it's just all about greed that's my opic it's just it's just wrong so I said
28:18
uh maybe you can do me a favor maybe you can resolve this this this issue this disagreement we have you still work for
28:25
the doj Department of Justice you work for the tax division you have connections to people who are very
28:30
knowledgeable about this topic so why why couldn't you arrange for someone in
28:37
the doj either yourself or someone else to meet with me or with anybody you pick
28:44
anybody out of the tax movement that's an honorable person and let's hash these issues out let's let's get down to
28:50
business and if we're wrong if we're greedy it'll come out real easy won't it because you can start drilling us with
28:56
questions but we can drill you with questions and the the people that are lying will get fleshed out right well I
29:05
saw him that day we parted company shook hands he went back to DC and I thought
29:10
that was it okay that was back in 2001 well we find out a few minutes before
29:15
Tom testifies in my trial in 2005 that he had written an
29:21
email to his supervisor after he and I talked and he presented to his
29:28
supervisor hey I just met with this Joe banister guy and he I used to work with
29:34
him and he asked if we could arrange for someone in the doj to answer these
29:40
questions and he basically says here well I've got it blown up so you can see it so Tom D Leonardo sending it to his
29:47
boss Ron simino big big big wig in the
29:53
doj but it's kind of kind of funny some of the things he said his meaning my associates are mostly
30:01
notorious illegal tax protesters who would most assuredly be disruptive and
30:11
uncooperative but he also said if his if Joe's motives are truly Noble and pure
30:18
he should be receptive meaning receptive to an Outreach from the doj because he
30:23
is currently the most highly publicized member of the illegal tax prot movement
30:29
it would serve the government well to show him the error of his views at the
30:34
very least banister could no longer argue that the government has refused to quote unquote show him the
30:41
law this is given to us this memo this email is given to us five minutes before
30:47
Tom D Leonardo gets on the witness stand so I have to you know really
30:52
quickly explain to my attorneys what I just stole you over the last 10 minutes to show them how amazing this piece of
31:00
documentation really is and how to show that this guy had a direct line to a guy
31:09
named Ron simino who was the chief criminal prosecutor for all tax crimes
31:15
in the entire Western United States his boss is like a Assistant
31:21
Attorney General and that guy's boss is the attorney general I mean it's like straight pipeline to the top and guess
31:28
what Tom wrote this email to his boss and he he copied these two
31:35
colleagues of his Melissa and Jennifer he never got a response from any of
31:42
them nothing nothing about oh he's a jerk don't talk to him that's that won't
31:48
work just no response now what does that tell you well you know what told the
31:54
jury they're trying to hide something trying to hide something but also told the jury it just reemphasized how sincere I was
32:02
about trying to get an answer and how recal uh you know these these doj and
32:10
IRS people are and I mean you know any any reasonable person can put these kinds of things together 2 plus 2al
32:17
4 uh so I I'll kind of go through this quickly but basically just the flowchart
32:22
showing how Ron simino where he stands in the Department of Justice and you know he did get got promoted after this
32:30
to a higher level in the doj he's now the actually I'm not this
32:35
might have been like a year old maybe maybe he's even higher now but he was a deputy Assistant Attorney General for
32:41
criminal matters he used to be down here he's up here so not answering emails can
32:47
really get you higher up that's how much territory he was
32:55
responsible for Joe just to clarify real quickly
33:01
sorry when you left it was Janet Reno when you got charged it was Eric right uh no let's see I don't think
33:10
holder right yeah Reno was in in was there when you left and then who was the
33:16
Attorney General when you got charged it might have been um what was the guy that
33:21
g no before him the uh White Ash Ash I
33:27
think it was Ash uh of course I love these Pages out of
33:33
my court [Applause]
33:42
documents and I love these uh headlines now when I when I was indicted I mean Katie Bar the Door there
33:49
was so much publicity about what a jerk I was when I got acquitted you know he had to go to page 28
33:55
F but the Sacramento uh let's see this was LA
34:00
Times Jerry quit X IRS agent that was you know pretty middle of the road
34:07
headline but I love this
34:14
one that was that was a Sacramento B that was the town this Capitol California where actually got
34:24
prosecuted uh right I think this is working out pretty good because I usually leave a few minutes for
34:29
questions U but basically agent for truth.com or Freedom above fortune.com
34:35
for the websites I've got a Blog in case you don't like being on list but you still want to vicariously be on my email
34:43
list you can go to that blog spot website and see I don't always update it as often as I should but you'll see a
34:49
lot of older emails so you can actually go to the website rather than getting on an email list but if you like to join my
34:55
email list uh you know get a throw down email address from Yahoo call yourself
35:00
George Bush or something you can get on there at agent for truth.com or freedom fortune.com and
35:06
get on the mailing list um I haven't gotten to this yet but
35:12
I want to have a Blog Talk Radio Show where I'm going to try to answer more questions where people can just call up
35:17
and say hey I got this CP 515 notice what is that mean you know or I just got
35:23
a knock on the door from a guy who calls himself a special agent what does that mean trying to get to that um f.org just
35:31
little interesting information about what was um predicted 100 years ago uh
35:37
and and how closely what we're experiencing seems to manage that you can check it out if you like
35:44
uh I think that's it so got do I have an hour Steve so I
35:50
basically have 10 15 minutes for questions so hopefully we'll have 10 15 minutes worth of questions to answer yes
35:58
sir is it even possible to get a hold of an irm uh yeah most of the irm is uh
36:04
available online it is yeah if you just type in uh well Internal Revenue
36:09
manual um you it'll probably come up and the thing is they do you know they're careful about what they put out and they
36:17
they play games with what's available but uh there's still significant amount
36:22
that's there and of course if you see something that's missing you if you get good at determining what's there and not
36:28
there you can certainly Foya and dig to get you know what's missing but there's
36:33
quite a bit that's available right on the internet which is better than you know 10 years ago yeah it's it's it's at
36:40
irs.gov irn okay there you go it's easy
36:45
and part nine by the way is a criminal investigation division so if you're looking at nine do something something
36:51
something you're going to be dealing with criminal stuff is there a handbook is that what they call the handbook the
36:57
handbook was um that like when I was there you know in the old days it was a
37:03
book and you would use that for your reference and then every so often they would give updates but the Special Agent
37:10
Handbook was a a portion of the irm yes yes
37:17
sir John randn Jeff dixin wrote a book
37:22
which we have online at constitution.org in which he argues that that uh
37:29
compensation for labor is not constitutional income subject to
37:34
taxation what do you think about that argument I'm I'm completely agree in
37:39
agreement with it you talk about judicial tyranny your income tax yeah Jeff wrote a book I I don't know if it's
37:46
not in print but you have it available at a at a website on constitution.org constitution.org
37:52
um I have a I have a copy and you know L some lucky people have copies of his original book judicial tyranny and your
37:59
income tax uh but Jeff does a great job of walking you through uh you know how
38:04
the how the IRS is supposed to compute a gain a gain or loss in the Internal Revenue code and uh tells you about the
38:12
court cases um but the question basically was you know the way Jeff
38:17
portrays or describes that how you calculate a gain because you know I don't know how many of you realize or
38:23
know that the Supreme Court has ruled over and over and over again what income
38:28
is in the word income is not defined in the Internal Revenue code it can't be because the Congress is
38:36
the ones who put out the law right well but the Congress if they could Define any term that's in the
38:42
Constitution well then they could say that you know an ounce of gold equals zero it
38:49
doesn't equal the you know lar to tell you what the amount is but uh so they can't Define terms like income because
38:56
the word income is used in the 16th Amendment so um Jeff's book and if it's
39:03
available they're constitution.org you say uh that's great because he he really does a good job another place is TR uh
39:10
Truth attack.or uh the website the truth attack was founded by Tom CER and a big
39:18
group of us who uh collaborated with Tom of course Tom did The Lion Share of the
39:23
work as far as a truth attack website but there's a place on truth attack.com org called the law
39:30
library and that's also an excellent place to kind of walk you through how
39:35
you know what the Supreme Court really said um there's also a uh I think it's
39:41
on the truth talk website about the it's a it's a rebuttal to the frivolous
39:47
arguments um periodical or publication that the IRS puts out so if you look up
39:54
truth about truth about frivolous tax arguments it'll probably take you to the
39:59
truth.org website okay loaded with questions this
40:05
morning uh getting on that point right there they keep talking about frivolous arguments and they're not going to
40:10
address it how do we go back and find the first court case that they're addressing the frivilous argument to
40:18
have you all ever looked at that you know that might be a better question for for Larry um as far as you know what the
40:25
courts are doing about the arguments I mean what I can tell you is that the
40:31
IRS every time they're going to find an argument that they don't want to deal with they're going to call it frivolous
40:37
okay and the other problem is that the and again Larry can chime in or any of the other attorneys but uh unfortunately
40:46
it's like the entire apparatus relies on the IRS to decide what is or isn't
40:52
frivolous that's where it starts and then you know the whole uh status quo
40:57
apparatus is like well the IRS says it's frivolous so it must be and so they
41:03
don't really do their own independent evaluation so the best place to go for the the latest trends and what's
41:10
frivolous is to go to the IRS website and then you can then from there perhaps
41:15
uh they list out court cases that will show the latest adjudication of those
41:22
you know so-called frivolous arguments that's the latest one of the one they already rote were frivolous that's the point point though it's the latest cases
41:29
that they've already ruled it frivolous these cases are just kind of reinforcing what they're already saying isn't it
41:36
right I mean they they love you know there's also this process and the attorneys can speak to it better about
41:42
uh if they find a case where they can you know get a pellet case law that
41:48
will basically screw everybody else you know by calling some argument frivolous they'll go to some case where it's a a
41:55
prosay litigant who isn't you know nothing against I've done my own prosay stuff but people who will kind of get
42:01
into an arena that they're not armed and ready prepared for and then they end up getting squashed and then there's bad
42:09
case law and that then the the attorneys who are in the tax movement The Honorable ones have less to work with
42:15
because this there's this constant thing going on where we may even come across really powerful information but we're
42:22
almost afraid to disseminate it because you know idiots get hold of it the
42:27
idiots get a hold of okay you said that I didn't so what I'm involved obviously in
42:34
a a case right now at the IRS and they send me letters I send them letters back
42:39
okay and some of the letters I get back are so off point where do they come up with they I
42:46
guess what I'm looking at is they're found I can't just pull us off the top of their head there's got to be some instructions they following as to what
42:52
letters they send in sequence to somebody yeah yeah it's uh if you send anything out outside the mainstream at
42:59
all you're going to get some monkey at the service center who's going to just send you the you know why do I have to
43:05
pay my taxes pamphlet that's generally the start and then if you keep it up
43:11
then they'll ramp up but they're just they're just following some dance card you know that their their supervisors gave them they're they're not making any
43:17
independent thought whatsoever so uh I don't I don't really get in I used to
43:24
get into you know tip for Tad and writing them and just you know but I just I don't really do it much anymore
43:30
because you're just dealing with adults you know people that aren't they're just following some script and uh if you're
43:37
really trying to build a record you know of showing sincere inquiries and that kind of thing that could still be a
43:43
benefit but you know sometimes the more you attract attention to yourself the
43:49
more likely that they might say maybe we should prosecute this guy or this gal um so you just it's a it's a facts and
43:56
circumstances type thing you got to be careful because sometimes you might you know be sorry that you attracted so much
44:03
attention to yourself if you're ready to fight fine but I think as I've showed you uh you know they can pull out a lot
44:09
of fangs when they when they want to so you may want to uh reflect
44:16
on how much dialogue you're going to have with you know idiots
44:22
like anybody else I was going to say that um in my experience it's every
44:27
letter that I've ever written them they have never responded once all they do is send out another
44:34
Form letter and I'm in Tax Court right now and they've told the tax court that
44:40
I've never um responded to any of any of the things that they've ever sent me and I got loads of of letters that I've sent
44:48
them they have never addressed one issue ever so they're lying to the tax court
44:54
right and of course then if but even if they address the tax court is going to have such a narrow uh you know what
45:00
arguments you can talk about um but that's another another difficulty anyone
45:09
else joh okay well uh I got to watch an
45:14
interesting trial conducted here in Austin in which Larry was of course
45:20
representing the defendant and one of the things I was struck by I knew about it before but uh
45:28
it's really hits you when you see it in action every time that Larry or Mack
45:35
tried to introduce evidence to support their defendant's position it was always
45:42
an automatic objection misstatement of law infringes on the prerogative of the
45:49
judge to say what the law is and it was always sustained they couldn't make any
45:56
argument and then when the judge read the instructions to the jury he read not out
46:03
of the statute not out of the regulations out of the instruction manual and told the jury that's what the
46:10
law was and the jury didn't know the difference they didn't know the difference so what is it going to take
46:17
to get this technique not to work uh did everybody hear the
46:22
question um I you know again the attorneys were going to be do lot better job of answering that I can tell you
46:28
from my own case that what dickstein and bernhoff did was to they said okay well
46:35
at least then we're going to apply that rule equally because the government it's pretty typical that the prosecution will
46:42
talk about the law all day long right you know their version of the law or what they how they interpret the law but
46:48
the defense can't ever do that so what what dickstein and bernhoff did is they go okay well what's good for the goose
46:54
is good for the gander they would object every time the government would talk about the law and that that destabilized
47:01
the government quite a bit now of course that was a trial that was six seven years ago so you know they're very good
47:06
at adapting and changing their spots and and you know moving forward and studying
47:12
us like like we're little Lab Rats but anyway that was one technique that was
47:17
used and it worked effectively because then Dicky would jump up and say objection your honor you know he's
47:22
talking about the law and it would just like the prosecutor would just go get so Bluster and U that was part of the
47:29
enjoyment of the trial if there ever was uh sir in the back you had a
47:36
question I guess not okay yes sir um is
47:42
the U is the IRS an agency of the United States government that's a lar be crap
47:49
question uh I I think it I think it basically is
47:55
it's just that it's it's limitations are so narrow and it's authorizations
48:01
whether it be through treaties um you know but Larry can go into those details and i' I'd rather not get wrapped
48:06
wrapped around an axle trying to do my best to for it you know I think that they're they have so much illegitimate
48:13
parts to them and I always find a core but it just applies to a non-resident
48:19
alien you know or an American working abroad and uh I think that's the main part of the scam but perhaps Larry can
48:25
dig even deeper than that for you you know just asking yes sir every time sh asked for
48:33
showing me the law they gave him extra day in jail yeah yeah it's it's not a there's a
48:40
lot of uh harrowing aspects to uh you know standing up and talking about these
48:47
things and I mean Irwin is has really I mean been hammered you know probably the most out of any of us so uh I don't know
48:54
what to say about that I mean you know except that each one of us has to judge
49:00
you know what we're capable of doing and what we're capable of enduring and I I've endured a lot more than I thought I
49:08
could uh and I've also been very fortunate because I've been surrounded by a very knowledgeable courageous
49:14
people and you're lucky you're fortunate to have those you know quite a few of those people right here in the room
49:20
today so uh I would always urge you to surround yourself with you know the
49:27
most reasonable courageous you know careful thinking people that you can and
49:33
they're out there you know you know they're out there you probably are one of them uh because you're here you're trying to learn you know the the facts
49:40
and the truth so uh I'm I'm not giving up so well hopefully none of you are
49:46
either and you'll spread the word out to people who didn't show up today um we'll make Austin an even bigger hot bed of
49:54
Freedom thank you very this will be on okay thanks all right thanks everybody
#Constitutional Law & Civil Rights
#Public Policy
#Tax Preparation & Planning