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Jon Roland to Texas Constitutional Militia 2008/12/20
Jun 5, 2025
Jon Roland of the Constitution Society addresses a muster of the Texas Constitutional Militia near Teague, Texas, December 20, 2008. He talks about how to disarm or neutralize a suitcase nuke and other actions militiamen can take to defend the country against terrorism. Speaker: Jon Roland
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good afternoon everyone this is the December 20th 2008 muster of
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the Texas militia and welcome to all of you who attended today
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I'm going to talk to you today about several issues of special concern to
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militia that uh deserve your attention
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wow this mock-up is intended to represent one of the
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great threats to National Security it represents a suitcase nuke
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which we have reason to believe may have already been imported into smuggled into
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the United States by elements of Al Qaeda or their sympathizers
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now a real suitcase nuke is larger than this is a conveniently sized box
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a 5 kiloton device would be about half again as large
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and weigh about 60 pounds 100 kiloton device is too big normally
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for one guy to carries about 300 pounds and about the size of a Foot Locker
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we don't know what size devices may have been smuggled in or even for sure if
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they were the information apparently comes from college Sheikh Muhammad
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the Chief Architect of the 911 attack but uh how reliable that information
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might be it's hard to say a lot of the rest of what he said is reliable and we
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need to take it seriously now the odds of any of us
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encountering a real suitcase nuke or of course very small
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however it's worth thinking about because we
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might be the ones who first because we're Vigilant to the subject
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draw attention to it if even if we don't have a chance to deal with it ourselves
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and certainly we can help get our friends and neighbors
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Vigilant on the subject as well now
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what we have here is the is a diagram of the interior of
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the typical device the is similar to the designs used by
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our military and we we believe is nearly the same as
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that of the Soviet suitcase nukes that about 40 of which
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are unaccounted for what you have
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is essentially a gun inside the case
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the two red outline areas are the two halves of the
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plutonium core the area here on the end is a high
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explosive and along the edges here are what are called
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new a neutron enhancers typically lithium which when the two
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halves come together flood the small region around it with
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enough extra neutrons to cause a high percentage of the plutonium to fish and
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and not just be dispersed by the initial reverse of radiation
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down here or it could be up here but for the sake of argument we'll put it down
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here is the control mechanism in the diagram that I sent you by email
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this was referred to as a switch was not really a switch as such
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it's usually a some kind of countdown timer and normally there will be a
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combination lock securing the entire package
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uh it's not a case of having this red wire blue wire type of issue like in the
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movies if you could get into it you could easily disable disarm it
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so it's not a great mystery in that sense the problem and they're probably
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not going to set it up so that putting in the wrong combination would set it
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off because that would make it too dangerous for the people who moved it around to actually use it
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but there is a risk of if you can't get into it
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that if you don't do the right take the Right Moves you could set it off
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now the question is how do you know when you might get one well
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the you would probably be working from Clues as to the behavior of someone
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you found with it or that led you to it obviously if it's a middle eastern guy
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who sounds like he's out to do you know
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wipe out millions of people you know maybe he's bragging about it maybe he's gets drunk you know who knows
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what he might do uh that's a clue
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the case itself does provide some radiation shielding
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the main radiation you need to be looking for is gamma radiation and it comes from the two cores or half
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cores so if you had a gamma detector and pass
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it around over device and it was hotter here and here that would be a really strong clue
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well enough to justify taking further action now what is further action well
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first of all if you can if you reasonably think you can and if you find
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it in a populated area you need to move it out of a populated area carefully
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but but also quickly because it could be on a countdown timer yet as far away from a populated area as
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you can because even a five kiloton device can take out
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hundreds of thousands of people in a populated area and if you happen to find a 100 kiloton
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device you're talking about something that could take out Millions especially if in the middle of a major
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city if you could find not only a location
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that's far away from a populated area but also some kind of a depression like
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a mine or Gully or pit something like that that's even better
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now you may not have a chance to do any of that but if you could fire a high caliber
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round probably a 50 cal but if you don't have it 30 ought 6 may be able to do it
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you may be able to penetrate and disable the triggering mechanism
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now there's some in speculation on whether you could also fire it through the gun case and disable it
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disrupt this area so the two halves can't come together
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there is reason to doubt that a 30-06 could do that
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a 50 cal could you'd be safe to put it right through the Middle with a 50 cal
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but uh other than that you're probably looking at firing one through here and through here in case the mechanism is up
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in this corner now generally speaking the clue as to that will be the distribution of mass
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within the caves we're talking about it being heavier on this end and on this
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side and if it is heavier on this side then
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on this side the chances are the triggering mechanism is down here because it adds some weight of its own
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if it's heavier on this side then it's probably up here so that you by kind of Shifting the
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weight around you can get a sense you can try to balance it to see where the
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center of mass is now obviously if we can possibly avoid
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it we don't want to try to deal with it ourselves however I'm assuming for the sake of
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this discussion that it's going to be an emergency situation where we can't bring
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in the professionals now if we could bring in the professionals
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I sent you a link to the website for the branch of the Department of
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energy that is supposed to deal with these things the problem then they have in principle
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teams that they can bring onto any almost any location in a matter of a
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couple of hours the problem is that if you were to call them and they didn't know who you were
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you'd have a credibility problems they're not going to send a team out
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just on the basis of a report for some from some unknown citizen
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now if you can involve local law enforcement to lend you some credibility that might be helpful but it also is
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represents a cost of time you may not have time to do that you might even have to do something like
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you know it's just declare yourself to be local law
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enforcement and by the time they figure out you're not they've got a team on the scene they're dealing with a problem
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but whatever it takes remember the number you can memorize it it's 1-800
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dial Doe that's like doe Department of energy
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to think of a female deer so
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what are the odds that there are such things in this country we don't know
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the report that we got was six or seven of them now the fact that uh College Sheikh
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Mohammed may not have known for sure whether it was six or seven is itself
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uh suspicious but it also lends credibility to it
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because it means that he was sufficiently distant from the actual operation to know about it without
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knowing the details now the source was also indicate that
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the actual smuggling was done by members of Mata salvatrucha's
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13. MS-13 that's a criminal back gang that
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actually that originated in Los Angeles of composed of Salvadorian expatriates
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and it's also very strong in El Salvador it's a vicious gang they'll carry
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anything for anybody and there's reason to believe that they were used as a
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conduit into the United States now when I've discussed this with
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Federal contacts and they approached me on this so I I
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have to take it seriously for that reason alone they're not going to approach me idly
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they are of the opinion that the reason why the devices have not already been set off is because they're not
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operational uh I don't believe that I think Al Qaeda is smart enough that if
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they have to if they're going to smuggle in devices it's because they know they work and there's reason to believe that they
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have not only acquired the devices but Personnel to maintain them and these things are not as
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don't have a short shelf life like the nukes that we use in our missiles
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they're designed to be put in place hidden at a location and left there for
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decades and still be usable so it's very likely that the devices are
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still operational the odds of them going off were the full yield might be somewhat reduced
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but the main effect of deter of time deterioration would be to reduce the
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yield not to make it less likely that they'll fire
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okay um and I'd like to move on a little bit
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from this subject I'll hold this up here for a little while so you can kind of burn it into your minds
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there are many other threats of this kind that we need to be cognizant of we of course all remember the anthrax
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attacks uh that is primarily an intelligence
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problem dealing with the actual attack itself
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once it's underway is very difficult for anybody professionals or
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or late militiamen as well as well that is mostly a matter of being being
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vigilant and you need to be vigilant to things like if you're into all involved with
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civil aviation uh make sure that people lock their
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airplanes especially their crop dusters better off better yet to disable them
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when they're not in use so that somebody just can't come in steal them and fill
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the tanks with some chemical or biological agent and to use them to
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spread the death and destruction okay these are some of the great threats
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now there was already been efforts in this direction there's a lot of excitement about that for a while and
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for a long time a lot of people who add such aircraft took measures most of them
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to secure their aircraft but that situation has relaxed in the
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last five or six years or so and one of the best things we can do as
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militia is to get recruit and get involved people in aviation
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first of all we need an aviation wing I'm a pilot myself there may be some
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other pilots in the group but also because of the potential damage
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the aircraft can do in the wrong hands and we need to make sure that we have
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that base cover to the extent that's possible now
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as I said much of it is a matter of vigilance knowing the people around you
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knowing your neighbors knowing casual acquaintances keeping your eyes open
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now you don't want to just become a squad of informants one of the things that you learn if
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you've ever gotten involved in some of these Reserve officers Corps or
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civilian police training operations is that they try to turn the civilians into
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just extensions of their informant Networks they don't want you to do anything they
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want you to tell them everything about everybody and that makes you really part of the
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problem the key difference that the of the
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militia Paradigm is that we deal with situations ourselves unless it's a
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situation that's we can't cope with but we do not in general involve higher
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level authorities unless it's really critical if you're merely suspicious of your
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neighbors that's not grounds to report them or turn them in we don't want another McCarthy era another Red Scare
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like we had in the early 50s I'm old enough to remember that period when the
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every day you hear on the radio you know your neighbor may be a communist if you think he is you know to report him to
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the FBI we don't want that if we if we start indulging in that kind
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of uh National paranoia we will have been doing to ourselves what the enemy
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is trying to do to us so we need to preserve our liberties at the same times that we're defending them
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but we do need to preserve our liberties and that means that ideally we're
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eventually going to get uh so many people involved in militia
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that we can actually know who all our neighbors are well enough to pick out
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any that might be a threat and that's not always easy but sometimes
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it is I have actually joined
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groups groups of Muslims most of whom are good Americans loyal you know ready
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to fight for this country but once in a while you can hear some of them talking and
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it's not friendly and those are the guys you got to watch because what the few people are doing or
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they're coming in they're trying to recruit from among the good Muslims good American Muslims for their cause
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and most of our good American Muslims are not uh ready psychologically to
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resist that kind of thing they are too trusting
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and we need to encourage them to be a little bit more paranoid so that they don't get sucked into
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something and wind up becoming the victims of something that is uh you know
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that they're really don't deserve to be involved in but could have avoided if they had been
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paying more attention so
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a few other things I wanted to discuss is you know this is our second meeting
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this year at this location this is this but this muster is
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essentially for the entire state and uh what I would like to see of
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course at a Statewide muster is the kind of turnout that we had in 1994 or 95 95
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we got as many as 800 at A muster in San Antonio
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okay we fill Alamo Plaza so it was a big deal
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now we could do that again but we need to aim towards that
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and now that though and the way that we were able to do that is because we had enough units in each of several counties
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to make up that number at one point
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we probably had between 10 and 20 000
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people who showed up at muscles through and various counties in the state
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that was at the height of it and when we conducted an election
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for the committee of safety in South Central Texas
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they have about two percent of the voting age population showed up to vote
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and they seemed to know who they were voting for so I think we can count that number as
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among those who or would be likely to show up in the event of a real crisis
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but that's still uh only a small percentage it can be enough
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the American Revolution was fought with only about two percent of the population
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although they had the support of about another third about an another third were loyal to
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Britain and of the remaining third were mostly neutral except at least at the
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beginning of the Revolution to where the end of the Revolution they joined the revolution
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because the loyalists were so brutal and abusive that they alienated the rest of
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the population and finally that's what really uh turned the tide it became
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impossible for the British to supply their troops off the land they had to
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depend on shifts to bring in food and supplies from England in order to man their to to supply their personnel which
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would largely confine them to coastal cities so they lost control of the interior
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now so if we could if we could get even three percent participation
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I mean that would be wonderful that would be more though then we get votes uh for libertarian candidates in
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Statewide elections which are generally speaking about the
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same people but we need to
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build it on a core of regular attendance at these musters if I'm not recording
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this Gathering today and frankly because I don't want to
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start doing that until we can show large numbers when we can show large numbers then we
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can put it on the web and it will begin to have an impact merely showing up at these musters
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has a huge impact we don't we never have to fire a weapon
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and even in practice just to have a solid important impact on
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the course of political events my mirror Gathering our Mitch or the
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existence of our organization the fact that we're they were here and getting ready
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the word gets out about that a lot of things change
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the reason why we haven't had any more Waco's or Ruby ridges
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is because after Waco the militia movement got organized
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and ever since then the powers that be have been terrified of an armed Uprising
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by the American people this scenario has been wargamed
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on more than one occasion the military has conducted war games in
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which it was the military against the armed civilian population
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and guess what the armed civilian population always won
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and one of the reasons why they always almost always won decides of course that they were more numerous and outgunned
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the regular military because they had so many veterans among them who could provide training and
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Leadership where the skills they had acquired in military combat training and experience
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but also that they had a very very high refusal to obey raid among their own
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personnel you know it's it it's very hard to put down a population if you give an order
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and your own troops turn against you that was the what brought down remember
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the Soviet Union when the
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Russian White House was besieged by tanks and troops
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when Yeltsin stood on a tank that was a critical moment in the Soviet Union
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the order was given to fire on Yeltsin and the supporters of democratic reform
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in Russia the troops refused to obey that order
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and the whole thing came tumbling down that was the fall of the Soviet Union
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and it all started with troops the local commanders who refused to fire on their
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own people and who instead joined them so uh
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now of course one of the things that the Red Army did not succeed in doing
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was demonizing Yeltsin and his Democratic supporters
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and the problem that we would be confronting today is that the troops
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would be brainwashed to believe that the civilians were a bunch of terrorists
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so the civilians need to present themselves as good honest loyal
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Americans who are defending their rights defending their country and that they
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are the good guys and it's very important that has militia
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we train our people and be prepared to train the civilians who may suddenly
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show up in large numbers that you do not start a gunfight
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all right it's better to take some losses more than you know more than a few
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to get to the point where the tide of public sympathy is on our side
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only after they have they've murdered some of us in significant numbers are we
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going to be able to fire back and expect to have the population support us
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so keep that in mind it will be a great Temptation if you're fired upon in a
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situation like that to return fire immediately and for the sake of your country your Constitution you may want
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to refrain from doing that and and eat that bullet
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so uh the way to organize local militia units is fairly well understood
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but it's a the key skill that all of you need to learn everyone needs to organize
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a unit in your local County and after you organize one you go and
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organize another one and another one it's okay for counties to have more than one unit
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they can they can place against each other in softball or something due to
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build up camaraderie we had two units in Bexar County for a while for example and
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certainly for urban urban counties that's appropriate rural counties one unit for County you
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may may work out okay ideally okay when this when this country was
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founded very few counties had more than three thousand people
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in today's America with 300 million people three thousand people is about a voting
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Precinct so if you look around you when you go to
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vote assuming you do it in person at the people that are there they represent what should be a militia
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unit now I've also argued that if we were to
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organize our country right we would also organize precincts into townships
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in the communities each with its own local government its own chief law enforcement officers its own judge its
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own grand jury and so forth to move government down to the level of
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about 3 000 people per community because at that level everybody can know
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everybody else and you can exercise the duties of of our society at a more
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effective level uh once you get more than about you know
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10 or 12 000 then it's you're beginning to think about a community large enough
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that probably needs more than one militia unit and of course you're also talking if we
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were to do this on an organized National basis we'd probably want to do is to
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have units muster or people muster it's in a staggered ways so everybody with a
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birth date on the 25th of the month would meet on this day at this location and those were the 13th of the month of
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this location and so forth that's because you don't want too many
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people in one place at one time
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so these are just a few of the thoughts that I want to send you home with
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I want you to have fun while you're here militia muster should be fun
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there should be an opportunity to build camaraderie to be able to begin build
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unit loyalty but then you need to carry it back to your communities to your neighborhoods
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now you may not initially want to approach approach your neighbors with the word militia
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uh you if you have a neighborhood association you might want to bring up at the next
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neighborhood association organizing neighborhood association to discuss the problem of what of crime
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especially in the light of the coming downturn in the economy
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simply simply thinking in terms of Defending themselves against Crime is the start in the right direction
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every neighborhoods should have a neighborhood watch the neighborhood whites can be upgraded
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into a militia gradually step by step you moving people
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along to where it being where they need to be generally speaking most people do not
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come to the point that we are at today in one step
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I don't think anybody here probably came to the position you're in now in one day
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or in one step it was probably a gradual process you know an outrage here an outrage
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there an idea here a word there it could gradually build up and movement kept
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moving you along well that's the same way with most people
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you you work a little bit on one person or group of people if you try to figure out first where
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they are how far they can go you try to take them there then you move on to
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another group another group another group you come back to the first ones to see if they're ready to move forward
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another step you keep moving in ways it's a little bit like hurting you know cattle or
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sheep or other things you you move a few of them along and a little bit then go back over move a few up more over and a
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few more come back to these you keep you keep moving them away together
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you know each with a little small steps until you finally got them all moving
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together in the same direction this is a can be a frustrating process
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because you get backsliders and you know naysayers and you know all kinds of
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gripers we used to say in the military that if people aren't griping they're not happy
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but the problem is that's in the military where you can give orders and when you're talking about volunteers
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uh griping can be a problem you may want to get the gripers out of the picture so
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they don't impair morale and unit efficiency okay any questions
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yes sir if a group is ever fired upon by the feds again and they're winning should they should
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they let the feds have a C C Spire to go get more ammunition and pick up their wounded
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uh hits the pen so much on the situation I
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think that the Davidians actually handle their situation fairly well in that regard
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because it more than anything else won them the sympathy of a lot of Americans
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they might have lost that battle and their lives but they won a larger and more important
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battle in the hearts and minds of American people which continues to this day and it's
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probably one of the reasons why many of us are out here if the Davidians really had fired the
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first shot and gone out and you know chased them down and shot them down as a
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lie they wouldn't have that sympathy so it's very important to apply no more
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Force then it's absolutely necessary and to always keep in mind that the ultimate
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battle is for the hearts and minds of the people it's not just for the the immediate
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tactical situation any other questions
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nuke there is the way it works is it the explosion forces two critical masses of plutonium
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together and when they hit each other it creates a critical mass in explodes right and if you keep if you can keep it
34:28
from the two pieces from coming together it won't create a nuclear blast that's
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right these are called subcritical masses now one of the things you would
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not want to do is to put around through the explosive that could set it off
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so you've got to figure try to figure out where the explosive is if you can
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that's why it's better if you can you try to tell by the distribution of mass
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within the the case and uh if you can't do have a radiation
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detector if you detect radiation here and here that provides a pretty good clue
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other than that you know this would be an awesome decision to try to try to disarm one of these
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things uh you know if it if you make a mistake it could cost millions of lives
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but if you don't but if you succeed you could save millions of lives
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and you know the odd thing is though the world would probably never know it even if you survived the situation yeah
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you can probably bet that the feds wouldn't want the word to get out that you had done it
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but if some civilian had saved the save the city because uh if if that were to happen
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they would be admitting their impotence and that the validity of the militia
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message and uh also of course it would be bad for business
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yeah
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basically it's a simple just like setting off any explosive here's the explosive
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it's a high what it's just wires yeah a little little
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trigger here at the end it's like a blasting cat yeah
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although it's much more efficient than an ordinary blasting Gap because remember you have to this has to propel
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it at a very high speed if it's too slow
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by the time it gets to the sub to the critical point it will generate so much
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radiation and heat that it will vaporize the entire assembly
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and if it vaporizes it before it can all fish and then you get a very low yield
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now you'll notice the shape of the contact points here
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the reason why it's shaped like this of course they're variations in this shape you want to try to get as far along as
37:08
you can before it goes critical some of the first devices were designed
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so that you really have this a much deeper pit so it would go almost all the way in
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before it finally became critical and then it was all close together and with
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vision rather than vaporize and disperse now keep in mind that this is plutonium
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plutonium is deadly in itself so if you were to release any of the
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plutonium you would need to cordon off the area keep a people away from it
37:47
until a clean a cleanup crew could come in and of course you'd be at risk yourself
37:53
but the key thing is to prevent the the the the device from fissioning from
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detonating and causing the damage that that could do uh by the way getting back to the
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arguments on why I thought that the feds were wrong about
38:13
why Al Qaeda hadn't set off these devices if I were Al Qaeda and I think it's
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useful to try to think like the enemy I think what they would do is to wait
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until they had 30 or 40 devices in place in this country before they
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started studying off the first one and then set them off at random
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intervals in random cities not just in the major cities like New York or Washington DC but even in little cities
38:47
so that nobody would know where the next one would go off and everybody in the whole country would
38:53
be panicked they'd be deserting the cities you know flooding into the countryside of you know running out of
39:01
food and water there and creating such a chaotic situation that the entire
39:07
country would come Crashing Down that's the kind of situation that we
39:14
need to be able to manage to the extent that it can be managed if this threat is to be realized
39:20
and uh and of course the thing is that if it's
39:25
we're just a bunch of volunteers you know out here in the woods
39:31
we're not going to have the credibility with our friends and neighbors for them to follow us if the crisis should emerge
39:39
so you need to build credibility with your own local neighborhoods your own local communities
39:46
you know if they're if you if there's a rotary club or a Kiwanis or else or lions you know enjoying those things
39:52
become active be active in your church be known to your community run for a
39:59
public office meet and greet people go to Country Fairs you know do everything you can to
40:06
establish your credibility so that if the hits the fan as the old
40:12
expression goes we will be in a position to manage the situation as well as it
40:19
can be and we saw a little of that as I hear
40:25
from reports in East Texas during Hurricane Rita
40:30
where as I understand it a lot of civilians took the initiative to help
40:37
organize their friends and neighbors to deal with that hurricane whereas Hurricane Katrina caused a total
40:45
breakdown of the social Fabric in the area around New Orleans
40:50
so how people hang together in a crisis makes all the difference in the world
40:57
I saw it in the Loma Prieta earthquake on the San Francisco peninsula when I I
41:04
was there when it occurred and as remarkable how the citizenry
41:11
all fell together to deal with the situation the traffic lights were out somebody
41:17
would volunteer to direct traffic other people volunteered to take food you know water whatever to anybody who needed it
41:25
uh it organization developed very very quickly in that situation
41:32
now what you had in that area were fairly well educated people
41:37
most of them without military experience or experience in other kinds of Disaster
41:43
Recovery but because they were intelligent and well educated and had a
41:48
good strong sense of uh by about
41:54
being bound to the community they were able to pull it together to
41:59
Think Through what had to be done and to respond to the situation so getting the a culture of readiness
42:09
becomes the critical thing what we have today in this country is a culture of unratedness
42:16
and we need to change that and we're on a from a culture of Readiness we can develop a culture of
42:23
strict compliance with the Constitution because the two to go together very closely
42:30
any other questions anybody else want to give a presentation
42:35
today
42:40
we have any motivational speakers who'd like to
42:45
to motivate the troops tell about your experiences
42:54
okay
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