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Live & Let Live 2009/04/18
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Gary Johnson interviews Jon Roland about events associated with April 19, such as the Battle of Lexington and Concord in 1775, the Davidian Massacre in 1993, and the Oklahoma City Bombing in 1995. Roland discusses the constitutional militia movement and the new book about it, To Shake Their Guns in the Tyrant's Face, by Robert Churchill. Also discussed are the recent MIAC and Department of Homeland Security leaked documents. Gary Johnson
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0:27
good evening and welcome to Live and Let Live for s Saturday April 18th
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2009 I'm Gary Johnson tonight I Live and Let Live we're going to be talking once again with John Roland who is webm of
0:40
the website constitution.org and we're going to be talking about a lot of things including the fact that tomorrow
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is April 19th and we're also going to be talking about a book that's just come out that uh John Roland plays a major
0:55
role in uh John Roland Welcome To Live and Let Live good evening Gary thank you for having me
1:00
okay well tomorrow's April 19th what is I guess it's more than one thing but
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what is April 19th oh a lot of things happen on April 19th uh First of and of all was it was
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the Battle of Lexington and concert in 1775 the uh
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British uh forces in Boston decided to March out to Concord to seize uh an
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arsenal being kept by the colonial militias and uh the the Patriots got
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word of it so they had to March through Lexington to get to Concord and in
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Lexington Green they were met about 6:00 in the morning the British had marched
1:50
all night by a bunch of uh uh the of the the militia of
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Lexington and there was a 10th standoff for a while until finally uh shot was fired we don't
2:05
know by whom but the British took that as a signal to open fire and the uh
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militia did the same uh when it was over there were
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casualties on both sides the militia withdrew but not very
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far uh they retreated into the woods and then the brtish proceeded to
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march to Concord but along the way they were subjected to uh sniper fire from behind
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trees all along the path now where they the road they had was a very narrow road
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mhm so it's only you know wide enough for a wagon with trees immediately on
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either side so the militian could get quite close and had excellent cover and
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the result the uh British horses suffered heavy losses well they did finally make it to
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made it made it to Concord of course the militia had removed all the arms and
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ammunition so they came back empty-handed and they faced cons more of
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this kind of onslaught all the way back so it was really
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serious uh losses for them and generally a defeat for the British on that
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occasion and this all happened in the 19th or we started on 19th all all happened on the 19th uh was this a shot
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heard around the world that was a shot heard around the world okay so April
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19th 1775 big historic day uh seems that something else happened on April
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19th right uh well not in chronological order but of course it was the uh date
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in which the uh FBI assaulted the devidians near wo now
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wait a minute they said this is not an assault uh well we we think it's an
4:04
assault the it it looks like an assault it the result is like an assault I'd
4:09
call it an assault okay so that's a big day and uh so April 19th is a big day
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you know conquered and all that uh so I guess we're going to talk about a lot of
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things including militias today yeah well let's move back to a few other events for the sake of
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completeness um it was only two days
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before the Battle of San jento uh close enough for commemoration
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purposes uh the Battle of San jendo we should remember was a battle between the
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Texas militia and the regular army of Mexico led by General Santa Ana and the
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Texans were LED of course by General Sam Houston
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um Houston had held back the militia most of the guys after the Alamo were
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ready to fight the Mexicans at the first opportunity but Houston realized that
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the Mexican Army outnumbered the Texans by a wide margin so if they were going
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to engage them they had to do it on on a field of battle that gave the Texans the
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advantage so uh uh Sam Houston held the militia back until
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the uh Mexicans camped uh in s at San
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jendo and he took advantage took advantage of their laxity they didn't
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post guards they didn't you know do all the things that uh that they should have done to you know defend themselves
5:53
against attack so a a lot of people think that the attack was early in the morning was
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actually midafternoon between about uh 3: and 4:00 p.m. but the Texans had the sun behind
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them mhm and uh the they caught the Mexicans entirely off guard yes it was a
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Slaughter uh the ratio the casualty ratio was more than 100 to1 in favor of
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the Texans even though they were outnumbered by about 5 to one um and we could say that am in in
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military history it's one of the most unequal battles in history in terms of
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uh militia against Army and you know smaller numbers against larger and yet
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winning by such a decisive uh uh in such a decisive way so technically
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that was on the 17th but we'll celebrate that on the 19th anyway no it's actually on the 21st oh the 21st the other two we
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right right okay and another event EV that was of Interest was the Warsaw
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Ghetto Uprising in which the uh the Jews which would been confined to the Ghetto of
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Warsaw Poland MH uh finally uh had enough they decided it was better to
7:15
fight and die than to just die so they fought back and they managed to get some
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of their number uh out mainly through tunnels and sewers and you know you said
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explain that you know the the the Germans had basically kind of I got they kind of wall off this area they had
7:34
check points and they just kind of right hurted them into this one area right they turned a part of the central Warsaw
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into a giant prison or detention Camp mhm and uh there had been escapes all
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along but the the Nazis were fairly effective at preventing Escape but the
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thought was that if that after after they smoke muggle in arms which they
8:00
didn't have at the outset they figured that if they made if if uh launched a uh
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an attack on the Germans that a few of them could Escape mhm so most of them
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died but a few of them made it and you know survive to have kids to tell the
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story um then of course there was the OK moving forward there was Oklahoma City
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Bombing which is also a similar event in in American
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history um on our website constitution.org we have links to a lot
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of these things and uh you can go there and uh read all about them and uh see
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the legacy of the that we commemorate on that day okay and uh you know so April
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19th you said a lot of things have happened quite a few of them have something to do with militias I mean I
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me technically it was the militias who were revolting against uh the British
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Empire in America that's right that was the a secessionist movement uh it was
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the Texans who were militia were against uh San An and the forces of Mexico uh so
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we've got got a lot of militia things going on here okay well let's kind of segue to 2009 and uh what's been going
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on with the I guess the image of militias as portrayed by the government and uh let me just ask you John to tell
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people about what happened recently in Missouri and uh in in relative to uh I
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was I don't know even the name of the organization but some government agency issued a report that uh made all sorts
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of uh accusations yeah well just call it m for uh for short uh we have the
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document they issued on our website under uh abuses and
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usurpations and uh okay so if you go to the web you go to constitution.org take
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a look at this map and uh if you scroll down oops oops I I gu scroll too fast uh
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one of these links is abuses and usurpations
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right one click that and then there's a whole bunch of links from that page yeah
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you scroll down further okay where am I going and it's a little hard
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to read from here yes it is hard for me to read okay I think it's in that section you just on there okay I
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see I scroll up a little bit what's it what's the main title um okay abuse in
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general abuse in general yeah okay maic report okay I got you yeah and it's but
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it's gathered together with several other related reports was not there just
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go for some reason it didn't like okay they H anyway I if it's broken I'll fix
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it but anyway the U the there was let me ask you what is M
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what's that in abbreviation for Missouri uh something
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assessment uh anyway it's a report from a department of the state to
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law enforcement in the state was it like a Missouri FBI yeah sort of like that
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but more like a research report in which they essentially are warning uh Missouri
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law law enforcement to beware of uh domestic terrorists domestic terrorists
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and extremists and they include in that Libertarians Constitution party people
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uh and all kinds of other reformer and dissidents and so forth and they were called extremists get called extremists
12:05
right all right well that's not too bad but what else would they call would they call terrorists uh the potential
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terrorists potential terrorists right so so beware they might okay well
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as I recall it was Ron Paul supporters and that Ron Paul supporter right uh and
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how were the law enforcement people supposed to recognize Ron Paul supporters and Libertarians and consti
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like stickers and uh NRA membership and you know anything that indicates support
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for gun rights uh so if you were in Missouri and you had a bumper
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sticker that would do what what what did they think you're potential terrorist yeah it was it's tell it's
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essentially putting law enforcement in a frame of mind where they approach you
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with a gun in hand MH rather than just approaching you
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okay and where they call for backup and or quick to shoot if you make a sudden move and you know all that sort of thing
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and more more likely to haul you in than than let you go uh okay so this when was this uh
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issued about two weeks ago maybe it's three weeks
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now okay and uh I'm trying again to open up but it won't open up uh so it was now
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was it public no it was uh leaked okay it was for it was an
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internal document only for law enforcement only and somebody in law enforcement
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leaked it to Alex Jones and he spread it thereafter okay Alex Jones the radio
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talk show host documentary film guest on the show occasionally yes uh and not
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quite a while we did to get Alex on again uh so uh he got this and he he
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said wow this is wow yeah yeah and so and so did the rest of us yes been a
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huge source of controversy and then it and the result of which was that the
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state of Missouri withdrew it removed it from their website maybe that's why the link is dead no well I have a local copy
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so that should work but uh it uh and the guy who was responsible
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for publishing it got fired ah okay who was that guy I forget his name been I
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mean what was he was he just a guy uh some state official I he was a state official so this m it's not some advis
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it's not some private consultant this is a state agency right state agency so the state although they were
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advised by a private group who actually wrote The Thing
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MH and I you know I'm not sure it's appropriate to name that group on air
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but if you go to our website and other and you look it up generally you'll find their referenced and they're very active
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at doing this kind of thing mhm they also apparently are responsible for the
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uh uh document which came out a few days later from the Department of Homeland
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Security we'll talk about that in a moment I want to talk a little bit more about the Missouri one first so the
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Missouri one it it came out it was written it may have been really written
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by some private consultant but a a a state official of the state of Missouri
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is the by line on it well shall we say right right and it gets written and it's eventually it's sent to law enforcement
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in Missouri right was there kind of review process I mean did somebody look at this and say oh no don't send that
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out or did it just kind of go through or do you have any idea well obviously the review process was inadequate because it
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got out and U to much to the embarrassment of a lot of people
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uh I guess I don't I want to kind of press you on this John what exactly did
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it say I mean can you give me some more details about it what it said it it listed these groups and it kind of
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demonized them they're Libertarians Constitution party so I recall
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anti-abortion people were on the list uh who else or did I is that pretty much
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the gamut Well Ron Paul supporters of course uh in uh
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generally supporter supporters of gun rights gun rights anyone mentioning new
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new world order or or anything like that mentioning the New World Order is that actually in the report I think it's in
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that one okay I know it's in the other one so okay and uh did we we kind of touched on this but
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I want to kind of press you on a little bit more what did it tell law enforcement to do in relation to these
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extremists slash potential terrorists well it didn't actually tell them to do anything it just framed the
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situation in a way that one can reasonably expect uh law enforce many
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law enforcement people to uh uh take as a license to abuse people right uh what
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was the motivation behind this I mean did do we know did this person or
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the real the real authors did they have an ax to grind against you know libertarian small libertarian Ron Paul
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type people I mean yes how do you know that because I've talked to them you've
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talked to who I know I know these people behind it uhhuh personally I mean I've
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yeah you know communicated with them face face to face so I mean if you met them like at conventions or what various
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events yeah and so what is their agenda their real agenda well their real agenda
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is to raise money mhm okay what they try to do is to
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portray uh domestic terrorists as all around us ready to uh cause civil
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disorder and uh you know you say they say they say they're trying to scare
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their donor base into donating more money for them and they do that by conflating all
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kinds of dissidents uh labeling all as racists and extremists and uh
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anti-semites and all that sort of thing mhm uh and uh so this they they demonize
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in order to to fund raise okay now that's the private organizations right
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and so they did they just kind of brainwash some people in the state
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government or or were there people in the state government who had their own agenda and thought hey this really fits
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in with something that we wanted to do anyway because we really don't like those libertarian or what what was the
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the M's interest in this well I suspect they were mostly just dumb uhhuh uh probably
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hadn't thought a much about it then were susceptible to being manipulated by an
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outside group that uh could over a period of time uh indoctrinate them uh
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to its own way of thinking mhm now they do a lot of this sort of thing in 1998
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for example I have a of U where at a conference of uh state supreme court Chief
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justices uh they spent you know one of their people spent the basically all the
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sessions in indoctrinating Supreme Court justices in each state chief justices on
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how to handle or really mishandle uh various types of litigant
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ESP especially uh what we call Patriot dissident mhm uh
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prosay uh say meaning representing themselves without an attorney MH uh
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sort of portraying them as a threat to the legal profession because they won't hire a
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lawyer and says we we have to stamp out we have to stamp out all these people
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who won't hire lawyers right well they may be a threat to the legal profession but they're not a terrorist
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no well they so this this a tape you're talking about uh is this a video tape or
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audio tape a video tape and so this person who was giving the presentation
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uh I for the Name Escapes me at the moment but uh he was well known is part
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of the organiz organization and but the this conference of I guess judges that
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were sitting around and they were listening to this guy and and they weren't and nobody was Raising any objections or asking any question
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questions they were just drinking it in which is the the most disturbing the most disturbing thing so they
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weren't they weren't criticizing the presentation a good judge should said
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now wait a minute you're prejudicing our courts by what you're
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saying here and if we have a case like you're discussing we'd have to you
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recuse ourselves right and and of course they're not doing that okay now taking a
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look at this Missouri report it came out very recently uh and it comes out and it has
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been withdrawn when you say it was withdrawn what do you mean uh they took it off their website
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mhm I mean did they issue a statement saying we repudiate this did they send a memo out to everybody who got it the
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original say please ignore this previous report we don't know about any memos but
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they have essentially repudiated it by firing the guy okay now why did that
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happen I mean you know what happen what happened between the time that the report was issued and the time the
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report was withdrawn uh a huge public Pro
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protest uh there were so many people up in arms sending emails and phoning and
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you know maybe some letter snail mail but it was got a very strong response by
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a lot of people and of course that's right at that point they felt they had
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to cover their their asses so when it was withdrawn uh did somebody you know
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have a press conference and make an announcement or you just you just kind of quietly disappeared they try to play
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it down as much as they could uhhuh okay now that was in Missouri now and that I
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remember that caused a big Brew Ha but that seems to be nothing compared
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compared to the Department of Homeland Security which is the US government yeah by the way there was another very
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similar report to the Missouri one in Alabama oh I didn't even know about that one it's so the same group is trying to
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do this in every state it just got discovered in in Missouri so it's so it's being quietly
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with withdrawn in other states as well okay uh can you tell me a little bit about the one in Alabama was that about
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the same time as yeah I don't have a copy of that one yet apparently it got withdrawn at too early a stage but I'm
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working on trying to get a copy okay so there somebody similar to the guy who
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got fired in Missouri in Alabama wrote a report uh and was very similar language
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was it actually sent to law enforcement I don't know how far it got okay but it
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was one I'm trying to find out uh that uh you know basically says you're a domestic
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potential terrorist based on your political views right and one of the clues to the source of this being that
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private group I mentioned is the use of the phrase right-wing ex
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extremist we're all right-wing okay real government people
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do not use a phrase like right-wing right for that matter probably probably don't use left wing either right that's
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a loaded word and it if you see it you know it's coming from an advoc advocacy
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group and not just from uh a proper government agent okay now that was Missouri and
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that's that was seem to me that was more like a couple of weeks but uh yeah well time
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flies fast when you're having fun okay I don't know if it has your date on your website here or not it just is 2009 okay
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so now after that I can't remember if this was after the Missouri one was withdrawn
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or before it was withdrawn the US Department of Homeland Security had its own report right that also leaked out
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yes and that was also sent to law enforcement we don't know who it was sent to it was on their website okay and
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uh it's gotten similar heat okay now first of all the US Department of
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Homeland Security we should remind everybody is this big umbrella agency
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after September 11 2001 a whole bunch of agencies were put inside of it I think
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wasn't ATF put inside of it no no I don't uh the uh because ATF
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changed yeah yeah IM Immigration and Naturalization was put under it okay uh the intelligence
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agencies I know the Transportation Security Agency at the airport was put under it right so a lot of uh security
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agencies were all brought in under it okay so it's a big security quot security unquote uh agency and they
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somebody wrote a report and what did that report say Well it again used the phrase
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right-wing extremist and said similar things to the Missouri report fact their
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languages similar enough that you can almost tell it was written by the same
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people so can you give me some details well uh the one thing is that on
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your website yeah the one thing it did ERS from the Missouri one is that it added a comment about returning veterans
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right before you where is that on your website right below it it's the right-wing extremism current economic and political
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climate fueling Resurgence in radicalization and recruitment
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Department of Homeland Security okay that one yeah all right this is the one that's
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been in the news a lot yes uh and uh as you said this one in addition to what
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the Missouri report said also talks about veterans yes and uh that was that
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really raised a lot of hackles yeah it the veterans didn't so much get involved
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on the first one but when veterans were mentioned on the second one uh we got
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all of them on board M okay so here's the cover of it I don't know if we want to take a look at it here and uh it's a
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relatively short report it looks to me like yeah that one's fairly short and
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uh there it is so this report as you say it's it's very similar to the Missouri
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report only this one got national attention it seemed to me that the Missouri report did get national attention but only it seemed to me only
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among Libertarians I don't know do you get that same impression well Constitution party people too Chuck only
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got attention to the people who were directly attacked is that a fair comment uh there
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were some attention by civil Libertarians as well a ACLU people got
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on board on that one okay but the the DHS one has I mean I see it on the
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national news being blasted and various uh rightwing talk show hosts uh like
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Rush limau have gotten on on the on top of this uh so this one and the this time
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the head of the Department of Homeland Security is it Janet napalitano right uh
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she actually has made some statements about this right uh it seems to me that
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she's either apologized or hasn't apologized depending on Whose interpretation there is well it's not a
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very convincing apology if it's supposed to be an apology and that's of course an
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interesting in itself because I don't think the she really
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appreciates how much her organization has been infiltrated by that private
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group I mentioned mhm and uh they are really a threat to our Constitution and
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to the National Security so that's important to to focus on here John it's
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not just that some people can look at this and I think some uh Pol
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itical uh pundits are looking at this purely from a political Viewpoint some are suggesting the Obama Administration
29:35
is liberal therefore they're picking on the rightwing but it seems that the people who are really behind this aren't
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really part of the Obama Administration there are people who've been there for a long time and this is not partisan this
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is something that's more long term right this is a uh special interest group that
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has you know a long history mhm through many administrations they try to uh
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infiltrate every level of government and to uh manipulate it for their own
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purposes now this report it came out when did this report come
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out hasn't been as long a couple of weeks yeah and it came out uh it got
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attention pretty quickly it seemed to me that quite a few people said this and said whoo now one of the things I think
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the Wall Street Journal reported this that uh when this report was
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written people saw it before it went out and said do you really want to send this out
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or something like that do you know more about that uh well we have rumors of that but nothing definite I have a
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feeling there's probably a lot of intense discussion taking place in the
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the Obama Administration right now cuz there been a ma major embarrassment for
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them mhm um and of course it should be an embarrassment for that private group but
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they they don't ever seem to be embarrassed okay and as you say now this
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report it went out uh I've heard it went out to law enforcement people uh around the country
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you're saying you don't know exactly who got it well it's on a website so yeah you know it's that goes out to the whole
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world yeah and so this this went out and
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um it is it still on the website I haven't
31:34
checked in the last few days it I whenever anything like that comes around I download a copy and put a local copy
31:42
on my your your website a lot of interesting things have have appeared and disappeared over the years yes
31:49
another one right above these by the way part with the group is a project megiddo
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document from the FBI in 1999 it says many of the same sort of things
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mhm right and it even talks about uh rounding up people and throwing them
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into DET detention camps okay let me talk I want to talk
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about that in a moment I want to finish our discussion of this DHS report okay
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so the report went out I've seen Janet napalitano on TV uh in the past day or
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two talking about this but have they withdrawn on this report because as you said her apology is kind of not quite an
32:31
apology if they really said we repudiate this report or are they just saying goly
32:37
we're sorry we insulted the veterans uh I haven't heard that it's
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been truly repudiated at least I don't consider it repudiated they need to do a lot more
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serious uh you know may helpa for that right and in Missouri you say that the
32:58
person whose name is on got fired I I think that Jen and Apollo should be fired okay well I that may be the case
33:07
but she hasn't been the last time I heard and do has is somebody owned up to
33:13
authorship of the uh DHS report no okay
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so I mean whether or not the person is fired I least would like to know who wrote it uh yes uh so that one uh
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as you say generated a lot of heat what's the difference if any between the reaction in uh Missouri to the reaction
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to the DHS report was it the same on a bigger scale or is there a different kind of reaction well is a different in
33:43
the sense that Missouri was of course Missouri yeah and it was easy for people
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to imagine well that's just Missouri MH uh when it turns up in Alabama and I
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were discovering in other state and then it's followed by this thing
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from the Department of Homeland Security uh the pattern becomes you know
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re reinforces the outrage right I mean if they to to have it not them not only
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come out but so close GA in time exactly yeah so when do you think is the
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significance of these two coming out at this almost the same time and actually a third one with Alabama mhm and probably
34:28
more um I don't know but it's going to be interesting for historians to try to
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figure it out a lot of people I know are investigating right now and
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uh what they are what we think we may be discovering could be pretty
34:48
explosive uhhuh and it's too early to say what that is it is but stay stay
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tuned well no okay so well let me put in a little remember there's a there's a
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time to report on Investigation the results of Investigations I want you to you know make any speculation here but
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it seems to me I'm just going speaking of not making a speculation I'll do it anyway it seems to me that one thing is
35:12
that these people who are pushing this agenda you know look out for the the the gun nuts and the you know the
35:20
Constitutional people and the people who talk about the New World Order uh look out for them because they're a threat it
35:26
seems to me that although I do not believe the Obama Administration you know is is going to
35:32
do this I think that the people who are behind this thought that this would be a good opportunity to push it now because
35:38
they thought well maybe these the people that are coming in might be more willing to listen to us and
35:45
so or at least let us slip it in yeah see that's a lot of
35:51
people uh naively think that the president is in charge of the government he's not
35:57
he's just sits on top of a vast pyramid of public servants MH who are trying to
36:04
become public you know our masters and there's a limits to what he can do to to control them or supervise
36:11
them yes uh a lot of them once appointed become little Empires under
36:16
themselves and he the president has very little influence over how they do their
36:22
jobs okay now you mentioned project megiddo and we now have that up on the
36:27
screen here we can take a look at briefly Matt uh this is from the FBI and it's official report and uh what was
36:34
that all about well that was anticipation of Y2K the FBI along with a lot of other people
36:41
got scared that Y2K would lead to catastrophe and public disorder and so
36:47
basically they put out a planning document uh called they call PL project megiddo what is megiddo megiddo is the
36:56
location in Israel that's where the where some expect the the final battle
37:02
at the end of days Armageddon MH and and uh that they would name it
37:09
that is interesting in itself I mean that you know what were they thinking
37:14
yes I know but uh I mean it comes right out and say you can read it for yourself you know they're talking about rounding
37:20
people up and detaining them yes I mean that's a little bit different from these recent reports which don't actually say
37:27
here's what to do megiddo said that round people right and and so so when
37:32
you hear conspiracy theorists talk about you know FEMA camps and people being
37:39
rounded up and red lists and blue lists and all that it's not as though there is not a documentary foundation for many of
37:46
these concerns MH the government itself comes out with stuff that point very
37:52
clearly to exactly that now this is an FBI report project megido right it came
37:57
out it was on their website and uh has it has it been repudiated they they took
38:02
it down they took it down they didn't repudiate it they they took they took it down yeah well of course Y2K came and
38:07
went I don't know that so um I don't know if uh we're getting a little I may
38:13
be getting a lot off topic here and if I am just you know tell me but do you know anything about Rex 84 no okay well that that was supposedly
38:20
the plan drawn up by Oliver North in 1984 uh in fear of of massive anti-war
38:28
protests and it had plans it came out it was leaked a few years later Miami Harold published the thing okay well I
38:36
definitely have to get a copy and put it on my website okay I I I don't know if you can get a copy I do know that it's
38:42
uh it was reported on the press a few years later when uh Oliver North was if
38:47
a copy exists anywhere I can probably track it down okay all right well that I said that was a little off okay so let's
38:53
get back on to things that we have and know uh so John uh we've got about 20
38:59
minutes left here and you uh I guess are you in a book I'm in a book this book
39:08
okay you now this what is the book what's it called it's called to shake
39:13
their guns in the tyrant's face okay it's by by Robert Churchill
39:19
uhhuh who is a professor of history at Hartford the University of Hartford yes
39:25
in Connecticut um and basically it is a fairly it's a
39:32
good competent scholarly uh treatment of the militia
39:38
movement okay and how of course for those of who viewers who may not be
39:46
aware of it I played a large role in launching the modern militia movement
39:52
okay and we do have the cover here I know Matt wants to show this uh to shake take their guns in the tyrant's face uh
40:00
this is really I guess literally in your face uh an attitude but the title
40:07
actually uses the word libertarian in it yes does he mean libertarian party what does he mean when he says libertarian no
40:13
he means people with a Libertarian political views small little Libertarians from our Viewpoint so how
40:20
does he Define libertarian I mean is it the non-initiation of force is a means of a cheesing political social goal no
40:27
no that's a fairly recent Mantra mhm uh he identifies libertarianism with the
40:35
philosophy of the American Revolution which is well was commonly called wig
40:41
Whig mhm or republican uh to use the 18th century
40:47
was it Lincoln a wig before became Republican that's right and
40:52
uh one of the the things that he that Churchill does in the book is he traces
41:00
the modern militia movement all the way back to the American Revolution and he shows how it reemerged
41:09
almost every generation uh from then until recently
41:14
so it's not some something new that just sprung up in 1994 mhm uh I might have
41:22
launched it relaunched it in 1994 but there were precursors that go all the
41:28
way back so about the roughly the first half of the book is devoted to those
41:35
precursors Okay so we've got I want to say the militia that
41:42
over seceded from King George is fair then you've got milias since then uh
41:49
including today including today right and he most of the books books and
41:56
papers that have been written about the militia movement have been hack jobs mhm
42:03
uh not true scholarly efforts they Churchill describes them as The
42:09
Narrative of 95 essentially a doctrine of present of demonizing the
42:17
movement uh according to uh essentially the uh uh par program of this private
42:26
group I mentioned now you okay which he which he also discusses in the book okay
42:31
now you said that I guess the the the modern militia movement got started in
42:37
'94 is that right did you say that uh most of it well there were some things happened in '93 too but
42:46
uh 94 is when it kind of came out well the reason I asked this is because you were talking about uh The Narrative of
42:53
95 is that are we talking about 1995 yes because the The Narrative he
42:59
describes the demonization got off off to a very
43:04
strong way after the Oklahoma City bombing yes they they they used that as
43:10
the uh say trigger to then attack uh
43:15
right- winning extremists right so let's kind of get little uh few here years
43:21
here wo was what year 1993 and okoklahoma city was what year
43:28
uh 95 95 so uh so we got 93 we got 95
43:35
and uh so 93 is sort of when the militias are uh emerging again right and
43:46
is that because of wo or is that preceding Waco or what well it was there was the preceding event was Ruby Ridge
43:53
yes the year the year before that's 92 9 to okay so there was a buildup actually
44:00
I hate to bring this you need to tell people what Ruby Ridge is okay Ruby Ridge was uh an assault by uh the ATF
44:09
and FBI on a family in uh a place called Ruby Ridge in Idaho northern
44:17
Idaho uh Randy Weaver Randy Weaver was the uh the the father of the
44:23
family he had been asked to to spy on uh dissident groups in in in that
44:32
area and refused to do it so they set him up on a weapons charge
44:39
as so-called confidential informant asked him to shorten a a shotgun and he
44:46
shortened it by about 1 mm too much just enough to make it illegal and then they
44:52
try to prosecute him on that they sent him a notice to appear in
44:58
court on the charge but they gave they gave him the wrong day so he could not
45:03
have appeared and when he didn't appear because he didn't have the right date uh they decided to raid him they
45:10
surrounded his uh home with uh agents uh they shot his wife and killed
45:17
her uh and her and her child uh they shot the
45:22
son uh of course it started with shooting the dog a standard operating
45:27
procedure for federal agents but there's a dog around they kill the dog and
45:34
uh that led to a very tense standoff yes uh we eventually uh uh militia
45:42
leader um mediated the surrender of Weaver who was uh uh not who was
45:51
convicted only of a minor charge of failing to appear you know with a court date which was really a misdem a
45:59
misdemeanor and uh they sued the government he sued the government he sued the government and won a large
46:06
judgment yeah several million dollars yeah okay so Ruby Ridge got a lot of
46:12
people riled up right this is before Waco and so the militia movement starts
46:18
I guess growing around 1992 right and then uh Waco of course
46:26
caused it to grow even more and uh but what got me involved was
46:33
the dividian trial okay now that we had the trial that was in '94 so in the in
46:39
'94 after uh we think of Waco April 19th the
46:45
big fire and all that but some people did survive yes and they were immediately arrested and put on trial
46:51
right and that was in San Antonio yes uh I was in in San Antonio at the time on a
46:58
contract and I was in a position to observe the trial not only the way a
47:04
visitor to the uh courtroom might see it but also behind the scenes from I
47:10
developed contacts in the teams both the defense and prosecution
47:15
teams uh and learned a lot about what was going on I put out the judge's
47:23
instructions to the jury before the even the lawyers got a copy on the
47:28
internet that provoked the feds to break into my client's office and steal one of
47:33
my computers wrong computers it turned out but uh they they stole a laptop and the
47:40
and the uh the uh stuff that I was putting out on the internet was on a desktop
47:47
unit anyway long story short
47:54
um what what provoked me was the way that the Davidian trial was conducted
48:00
how many about five are on trial seven how many were on trial uh nine I think
48:06
nine okay yeah anyway uh have to check that number but it's on my website
48:12
MH the thing is that uh the jury was ready to acquit MH but they thought they
48:19
should convict them of something so they convicted them of carrying a weapon
48:24
during the commission of a crime but they can they con acquitted them of the crime well carrying a weapon during
48:31
the commission of a crime is only an enhancement it's not a crime in itself and yet they were sentenced for
48:38
on the basis of that carrying a weapon in the commission of a crime when you
48:44
didn't commit the crime right and the the the in judges
48:50
instructions of the jury which is very common in such cases uh was a uh very
48:56
cleverly written uh uh to deceive the jury and that's
49:03
what essentially happened uh the jury for person Sarah Bane afterwards uh was really angry
49:10
about how they had been misled and and uh they she admits that the jury would
49:16
have found them totally innocent of all charges if they had realized what was going on okay now how does this relate
49:24
to the militia mov well the realization emerged that the
49:31
government was doing this to people yeah it wasn't just denying people's rights
49:36
in court it was going out and killing them in the field as it were MH there earlier been uh of course the the oper
49:44
operation move in Philadelphia where they burned out a bunch of people uh
49:50
explain that that was a group uh I want to say black militants I don't know if they're all black or not they they're
49:56
mostly black people yeah and uh they had they was in this neighborhood in Philadelphia uh and one day the cops
50:04
went in and there was a Siege and the mayor I I guess the mayor actually
50:09
authorized a bombing of this right this townhouse or something yeah and earlier
50:17
there had been of course the and I say bombing I mean a helicopter yeah yeah yeah yeah dropped a Bob at burned them
50:24
out of course ear there there had been the assassination of Gordon call he can only be called an
50:30
assassination he was I think they gouged out his eyes and cut off his hands and you know tortured him to death before
50:36
they finally killed him then they burned the body uh what was that in Arkansas I
50:42
forget it word exactly CT anyway um so there have been a lot of atrocities like
50:48
that yes and the militia movement essentially emerged to defend against
50:53
that kind of thing the the the resounding cry is you know like Remember
50:58
the Alamo well it's with no more wacos right okay so 94 is a a big year you're
51:06
kind of in the middle of it now what does this book say about all that we got about 8 minutes here well what it says
51:13
is not a definitive history of the militia movement that has yet to be written but it makes a good introduction
51:21
to it m I suspect that Churchill is planning more books especially if this
51:27
one does well mhm so I'm encouraging people to buy the book can't do that uh
51:33
and I'm I'm just reporting I'm doing it I'm not telling the audience to buy the book yeah okay and
51:39
uh with a hopes that uh the definitive
51:44
book or books will be written on the movement which I think is one of the
51:50
most important in American history um because it raises so many
51:56
issues it really come brings together all of the Constitutional issues of this
52:03
of of our time MH because basically it's a Constitutional Militia movement these are
52:09
constitutionalists who are happening to also arm and prepare themselves for battle if it comes to that now you talk
52:16
about the militia movement kind of coming back again and again and again
52:22
what I think people are kind of familiar with the militias in recent years I don't
52:28
remember hearing anything about militias before the 1990s so uh what
52:36
what were they doing earlier well the answer is not much uh during the first and second
52:44
world war the Cold War the depression people were distracted by those uh
52:51
events MH and tended to uh be less concerned about constitutional
52:58
compliance for example because of the depression there was not a lot of opposition to the violations of the
53:05
Constitution during the New Deal uh that the the depression gave the
53:13
administration and our the leaders uh cover for violating the
53:18
constitution in an early now there had the last big uh uh efforts significant
53:27
efforts actually were LED were the leadup to the World War I mhm and uh the
53:36
uh and there were others associated with uh the uh the leadup to the Civil War uh
53:44
and to various other uh uh movements and activities well let me ask you this
53:51
today what does the what do the militias do do they it's either they March around and
53:59
practice or what did what did the militias actually do well uh the answer is varies from
54:07
unit to unit yes but they mostly engage in combat and Law Enforcement Training
54:14
mhm so it's mostly training training right and practice I guess practice so
54:19
we used to do back in the early 90s it was we tended to do more target practice
54:25
mhm but uh since about the late 1990s we've gone
54:33
much more into combat training uh using paintballs and air uh airsofts and stuff
54:40
like that okay now that's what the I guess the '90s zeros
54:47
uh incantation whatever the term is of uh incarnation of the militias have done
54:53
what about these previous eras is did they I think paintballs didn't even
54:58
exist you so what what did they do well most of them were most people
55:05
active in militia units yeah are veterans mhm at Gatherings of militia
55:13
leaders are almost all veterans mhm uh but they're not necessarily just
55:19
Veterans of the military they tend to also include a lot of veterans of law enforcement mhm
55:26
and what most of them have in common is that first of all they took an oath to
55:32
uphold the Constitution a high proportion of the here people who take that oath very
55:38
seriously often for for religious reasons and secondly they are people who
55:45
have tended to encounter a lot of corruption and abuse of power in
55:50
government M during the course of either their military or law enforcement service or perhaps in another Walk of
55:58
Life um so corruption and abuse of power tends to be and the witnessing it or
56:05
having it happen to a friend of yours is tends to be the main motivating factor
56:11
okay we've only got about a couple of minutes left here John you know when you talk about the militia you you're for
56:19
the militia the Second Amendment you know say talks about a well-regulated militia being necessary for the of a
56:25
free state but you know especially because of the the media spin on all of
56:30
this a lot of people when they hear militia they get scared and think it's bad and evil in like a minute or so what
56:37
why should people be for the militia why should they have positive feelings about the militia well first of all because
56:42
they are the militia it starts with that militia the the primary meaning of
56:49
militia is defense activity mhm the opponent the the the one the demonizes
56:57
are trying to change the meaning to mean only armed groups but the original meaning from the
57:04
Latin is defense activity MH now originally one could quibble it says
57:09
well it's you should mean military activity but in the ancient uh Rome
57:15
Roman Empire or Roman Republic primarily uh the milit the militia were
57:22
used for law enforcement and Disaster Response as well as for uh fighting uh enem
57:29
foreign enemies so uh defense activity is probably a better translation okay
57:36
and that what it in linguistics the term is a poim p o l y s m it means a word
57:45
having more than one meaning yes and in this case uh it's another kind of word
57:50
called an Andro acronym which is is a word a polic that
57:57
has a primary meaning of an activity and a secondary meaning of those engaged in
58:02
the activity or those who are obligated to engage on the activity okay John well
58:08
we're out of time I want to thank you for being with us here on living that live we've been talking with John Roland he's webmas of constitution.org I'm Gary
58:16
Johnson good night next week on Live and Let Live Our
58:21
Guest will be Dr John breeding he will talk about the threat of the use of
58:27
Ridin and other mind altering drugs on uh school
58:53
children
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