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Mt. Carmel Massacre Memorial 2012/04/19
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Jun 5, 2025
Commemoration of the lives lost in the massacre of the Branch Davidians at the Mt. Carmel church near Waco, Texas, from Feb. 28 through Apr. 19, 1993. Speakers include Davidian survivor Clive Doyle, historian Catherine Wessinger, singer-songwriter Connie Heidebrecht, and talk show host Jeff Davis.
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0:00
here this year this is the 19th annual memorial it's the 20th memorial
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uh since the fire i had one during the month of june in 1993 while i was in
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jail so i didn't attend that one
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it's hard to when you think back it's hard to sum up all that happened uh
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during the 51 days siege in 1993.
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we're here today to basically re remember and pay our respects to those
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who died and to
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bring out some things that we've learned since then as far as uh
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what took place and uh so we ask that you bear with us
1:07
one of my speakers hasn't showed up so they told me to just keep talking uh
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one of my speakers hasn't turned up one that's here that chose not to speak
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so what we want to do is to asked catherine wessinger if she will
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come forward at this time catherine wessinger is a professor from louisiana
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from loyola university she's been involved over the last few years in writing the
1:41
history of of the survivors she's interviewed
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catherine madison before she passed she helped write a book for bonnie holdeman before she passed away
1:54
she's done a book for sheila and as you'll see over here
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there is a book supposed to be coming out in august that she has worked on with me
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she's going to talk a little bit about that but also about some evidence that's she's
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discovered as she read through the logs
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that were released through the freedom of information act and so forth and something she wants to share with
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you so i'll ask kathy to come up at this time
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well of course this is a time of memorial and um but first i want to
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uh acknowledge matthew whitner who's co-editor of clive's book
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and matt has drawn some really incredible floor plans and diagrams of the building
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which are there they're over here and they're just really outstanding so i i encourage you to take a look at that
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but after we got uh finished with kli's book it's off at the printer right now and not the printer it's with the publisher it's
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being you know prepared for the printer and so i started reading through a log it's
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called the fbi event log and uh it's a 594-page document
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you can it's available in the lee hancock collection at the archive at texas state
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university in san marcos and lee hancock is a reporter with a dallas
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morning news and somebody in the fbi was following her
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leaking to her a number of very interesting documents and okay i'll try to speak louder
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that's not a micro is that a microphone it's just a quarter part for them okay
4:05
all right i'll just be trying to speak as loud as i can or maybe i'll come over here
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um
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all right it's the vacuum cleaner i in my voice all right i'll try to speak as loud as i can
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so i've spent the last month and a half reading through a 594 page
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log produced by the fbi it was not intended for public consumption it was an internal
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document what it does is it's a compilation of various logs uh so you know within
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the agency you had the um the hrt the hostage rescue team they
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had their lock the negotiators they had their lock that back in the hoover building in
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washington dc you have something called sioc that's a strategic information and
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operations center all the guys the fbi agents who are out you know here in waco
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on the case in 93 their commanders were reporting constantly back to sioc
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sioc was directly involved in all the decisions that were being made
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um so uh and then somewhere uh you know somebody took within the fbi
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took all these uh various diverse logs and pulled out entries and
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and then put them into a compiled event log and that's what i've been reading okay
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and so there are various agendas in the log and you can see the various agendas of
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the negotiators hrt sioc so obviously we know there are
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various agendas in the lung but despite the agendas and we can and the agendas are interesting to talk about
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but um you also gain very interesting information that um that we don't have otherwise so
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i thought i'd just share with you some of the things that i learned
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also i was reading the event log in conjunction with reading
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a book by the man who was the negotiation coordinator
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for he was a negotiation coordinator from march 1 through march 24th his name is gary
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messner and he's got a book it was published in 2010 entitled stalling for time and he also
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gives some very interesting information on what was going on behind the scenes with the fbi and you know
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those of us who have been concerned about what happened
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and have studied what happened uh it's been very obvious that the actions of
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the hrt the tactical actions were undermining the negotiations
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and every time you know quite a few children came out early on but um
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later when adults started every time adults would come out the hrt would do something to punish the
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branch davidians which would discourage people from coming out and what gary nesner reveals in his book
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is that even the negotiators thought that the negotiations were being
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undermined and that's why he got pulled off the case because he uh by march 25th they called him back
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uh you know out of waco and they sent somebody else in because
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he confronted jeffrey jamar about the tactics and and then uh and then he got a call
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that night and uh they took him off the case so it's you know i don't agree with everything
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he says in his book about the religion and and all that but um but it nevertheless there's some
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interesting information in his chapter uh relevant chapter in that book
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it's a bit hard for me to know where to start because there's so much to um to to highlight and of course i want
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to wrap it up uh you know in time to memorialize everybody
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but i'll looks like i've got a little bit of time so here we go um
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well i mean we're familiar with the events and who came out but i'm going to start here
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with march 12th and march 12th is the day that uh kathy schroeder came
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out and then also later that afternoon at 6 00 p.m oliver the reference came out and then
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that night uh suddenly the electricity got turned off and uh interesting thing happened that
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one that night um of course there were bugs inside and so one of the bugs picked up
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david dictating an sos message to be flashed through one of the windows using
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a flashlight and of course the fbi saw that and then the next night
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is when they brought in the spotlights you know so the spotlights were there to harass the people
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inside the residents but but also critically i think to prevent anyone on
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the outside seeing the sos messages um also the next day march 13th
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jeffrey jamar the on-scene commander uh told the negotiators that they should
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not make any effort to call in to do any negotiations so the log
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reveals that jamar was directing the negotiations but he was always in touch with
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sioc they were they were fully on board with the decisions that were being made by
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um march 15th you know that's when they started using
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the combat engineering vehicles to push the lumber back behind the building they were clive in
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his book talks about how they push it up at a big pile and that looked ominous to the people
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inside march 16th is kind of interesting on march 16th
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mike panera the lead guitarist of iron butterfly called the fbi and he recommended that
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the agents use the loudspeakers to play in a gotta davida over and over again at the branch
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davidians to drive him out of the residence he said it worked during the vietnam war
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and he said that he even offered to bring iron butterfly to mount carmel and they
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would play it in person so that's the first mention of the
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uh using the the irritating high decibel sounds is a kind of a psychological
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warfare it comes from mike panera of iron butterfly but also on that day a special agent in
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charge arrived from el paso by the name of dick schwein and
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he took over the evening shift you know jamar had the day shift schwein had the evening shift
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and he was very much responsible for implementing uh the high decibel sounds
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through the night but um but again with approval from sioc
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um on march 17 sioc ordered negotiators to take a
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hard-line approach they basically what they meant by that was set a deadline say have 10 people
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out by 1pm the buses are there if they didn't come out something would be destroyed and that
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and and so that you know all the destruction that we saw during the siege a lot of that was in
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response to setting that deadline and people not coming out but uh so you they got that
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order from sioc at 9 35 a.m in the morning but at 10 15 a.m the negotiation team
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enters this lot and it says i'm quoting karesha said the situation has set up
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the situation and is trying to fulfill a prophecy in which he dies and then it mentions the psychiatrist by
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name and it says this psychiatrist should say this idea over national media
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and and then a particular um uh negotiator was tasked with calling the
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psychiatrist so he would say that idea over national media so that's
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the first um entry in the log about that i see of uh manipulating the
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national media um
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march 18th they started removing the fuel tanks clive talks about that in his book
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um march 19th uh
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two men came out they're here today brad branch and kevin wycliffe and i didn't um know what time you guys
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came out but uh but you did what time was it
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well anyway you guys came out on march 19th the next day though the next night
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jamar on march 20th uh jamar spoke with an official in sioc
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and this is quoting from the log it was agreed that we seem to get more productive results when we put pressure
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on compound okay so that would that was the entry for march 20th however
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they didn't uh they didn't really ramp it up until a little bit later because on march 21st
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seven people came out you know early in the morning it was victory in hollingsworth and annetta
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richards at 11 a.m rita riddle gladys ottman
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uh 12 58 pm sheila martin ophelia santoyo james lauter they got seven
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people out um but that night
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there were oh no excuse me later in the afternoon early evening uh the tanks destroyed some vehicles and it
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was that evening that they started playing the high decibel irritating sounds through the night
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okay so a very successful day getting people out and then they ramped up uh the
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psychological warfare anyway this is where nessner had a
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confrontation with janmar and he got pulled off the case and uh he was pulled off by march 25th
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and us other people came in somebody else came in as negotiation
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coordinator but uh the negotiation coordinator was not byron sage
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but he was still playing a pretty uh significant role um
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march 28th this is when uh david koresh received a telephone call from his attorney dick degaran who had
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been retained by his mother and then that was followed on march 29th march 30th march 31
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april 1. you know dick degarin came to mount carmel went inside
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uh numerous times spent many hours inside talking to to people and uh and then later jack
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zimmerman came the attorney who was representing steve schneider and a lot was accomplished uh
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during those talks but interestingly let's see
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on april 6 there's an interesting uh entry because
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the negotiation the guy who was the head of the negotiation unit based at quantico called sioc
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and he this is the this is what the log said he called to request any update on
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any possible contingency plans to deal with korres should he fail to leave the compound at the end of his
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holy week and then it goes on to say he was told that no definitive plans had been agreed
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upon furthermore no deadlines have been set that was at 8 35
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a.m however at 3 30 p.m sioc locked that
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um that a request from the hrt to the army at fort hood for 48
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elimination rounds and 36 ferret cs rounds had
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needed authorization from higher up in the army so the guy at fort hood couldn't give
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that authorization so hrt was then advised so that they could seek that authorization to get the
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ferret rounds to that were obviously shot in on april 19th
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so here you've got the negotiation uh big boss being told no no deadlines
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you know nothing's planned you know nothing is in the works but yet they're in the process of
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ordering the ferry rounds and sioc knew that toward the end of the
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the siege the fbi became aware that the rashvilians
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were collecting rainwater and a little alcove or
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and they very much did not want them to do that and so they started and you can see the alcove it's to the
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right of the central tower it's on matt's diagram that's over there on the table
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and so when people would go out to where they were collecting water uh fbi hrt guys would start
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throwing in flashbang grenades and this happened a lot so it happened
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for the first time apparently on april 7th two flash bangs thrown at people who are fired at people
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in the courtyard april 9th is very interesting because that was good friday
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and steve schneider who spent the most of time on the telephone with a negotiator negotiators
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he requested to be permitted to go outside between 3 and 4 pm
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the hour regarded as when christ died on the cross and he wanted to light seven
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canisters of what he called incense he seemed to be some kind of smoke
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canisters because they emitted orange smoke so they gave him permission to go out and he lined him up and he
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pulled the tab and released the orange smoke during that time
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and that but at 6 30 pm
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an hrt agent advised sioc that per special agent in charge jamar
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and hrt commander dick rogers quote there would be no plan to fight a
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fire should one develop in the davidian compound okay so that decision is in the log
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as of april 9 in response to the uh you know the incense um
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incident on on good friday uh also they're they're ratcheting up
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the harassment of the branch davidians at 7 p.m that night steve schneider came out the front door
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because somebody in a tank beckoned him a lot of times the telephone line wasn't working you know
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it would get run over by the tanks and so it was not unusual for somebody to come up in a tank and beckon for him
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to come out and talk to them and then they'd work on getting the phone lines fixed so they back and he came out and
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they threw a flashbang grenade on him and which of course unnerved him
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badly uh also that evening somebody else was in the courtyard who got flashbang by
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april 10th they were laying concertina wire around the building cliff talks about witnessing that
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also on april 10th the negotiators began start asking questions about the
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pregnant women and the children inside and so they wanted to know the due dates of the pregnant women and steve told them
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and i'll mention that again in just a minute on april 14th uh this is the end you know passover
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ended april 13th so april 14th uh david wrote his letter saying that he would write his
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manuscript his little book on the seven seals and then they would come out he was
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going to give the manuscript to dick to guaran his attorney and uh and who would then give it to um
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two bible scholars dr james tabor and dr phil arnold and then they were coming out and he uh
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so at uh beginning at 10 21 a.m uh dick deguire and taught spoke with
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steve by the phone and apparently he read the letter
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to them and so by 12 50 pm byron sage the negotiator reported
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this new development to sioc about the plan you know writing the book and then coming out
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uh by that afternoon steve and judy schneider were starting to request
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typewriter supplies you know and because they had an electric
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a battery operated word processor that they were trying to use because they didn't have electricity
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because the lecture you know the electricity was turned on i think it's it's kind of heartwarming
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but poignant that by that afternoon neil vega
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apparently was very excited about the prospect of coming out and so he started hanging out banners
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outside the windows little friendly banners he goes three banners read proverbs one two
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three four we come to love not war another banner let's have a beer when this is over and
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the third banner my name is neil vega i'm from hawaii okay so a series of three of it and then
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about 30 minutes later he hung out three more banners he goes media and fbi don't know the truth you
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can't accept the truth we could still have a few beers to get it that's one banner the next one is i'm an american i
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love america but the atf killed my family and friends
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okay so sioc at this point knows that david has a plan to write his book and
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come out but the log at 6 11 pm
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sioc called uh an hrt agent in at waco
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and asked him to prepare a notification list should assault take place
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um anyway i'll clarify that in a minute at uh also though very at 6 45 pm
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uh greg summers brought out a packet to give to the hrt guys in the uh
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one of the tanks and david had signed his contract with his attorney you know so
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it's a retainer contract with the attorney so i i think that's a clear sign that he was planning on coming out because he
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signed the contract and and that was the first step he also at that time
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sent the letter that had been read to them previously about writing his little book
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also later that evening though sioc called back the agent at the waco
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command post and gave further details about what do they mean by negotiation a notification
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list and basically he was told to list people in a timeline
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format relevant to who should be contacted prior to during and after assault plan is
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initiated so it's a it's a list of people in the government who should be notified
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um april 15th negotiations logged an entry called
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health concerns about the two pregnant women and that nicole was nicole
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get was five months pregnant and aisha gargarfos was due in may that's what they locked somebody else's
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flashbang so david is writing his book but on april 16th
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at 1 15 am a tank runs into the building
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and apparently it was at the room right where graham craddock was sleeping probably in his bunk bed and
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but apparently graham was so out of it even though it ran rammed the building and came push the building in about a
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foot and a half graham didn't wake up but david thibodeau had to wake him up and get him out you know get him out of there
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uh so you know again you know just one more thing to disrupt
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the the plan to come out
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dave steve and judy are still asking for typewriter supplies
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april 17th that's when the janet arena they got their approval from attorney general janet reno to um
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for the assault on april 19th they had the meeting with her starting at 5 pm by 7 pm
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the log shows that the plan was approved
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then that evening an official in sioc called the hrt commanders dick rogers
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and he read the rules and engagement to dick rogers the rules of engagement are not in the
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log but what is in the log he also read to dick rogers
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document entitled stipulations with regards to the use of cs which is very interesting and i'm
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summarizing here number one if during insertion is
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subject saying we must back off or will harm the children we back off and continue to negotiate
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number two if a subject is viewed threatening children if there is a clear shot the subject will be shot number
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three if subjects are threatening the children but cannot be seen we back off number four be sure that all who leave
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the compound following insertion of cs are interviewed concerning the location and condition of
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the children number five the mere presence of a child in a door or opening
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does not stop insertion of cs and number six and this this time i'm quoting from the
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log it says if mass suicides are indicated proceed with emergency rescue plan
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as briefed the welfare of the children is paramount in this operation
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so a little bit later another official called and read the same documents to
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special agent in charge jeffrey jamar so jamar and dick rogers were both clear on
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these instructions april 18th they removed the remaining vehicles
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from the front of the building they complete the uh installation of concertina wire they
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talk about having a funnel there at the driveway clyde when he escaped from the chapel
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side ran into the concertina wire and then you came out the funnel
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okay steve and judy are still asking for um
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they were asking for a cassette typewriter ribbon for this electric word processor they were also
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asking for batteries but they were told that the commander
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would not allow them to receive batteries at this time somehow they rigged up batteries anyway
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because we know that ruth riddle brought out a a computer a floppy disk with um
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you know david's uh um you know the first seal his incomplete
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manuscript with a first seal
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those of us who've studied the negotiations know that all throughout the negotiations the branch davidians
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kept asking for milk for the children a lot of times they didn't get milk right away a lot of times the milk was
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kind of like held hostage to get get more children sent out and then children would be sent out the milk still
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wouldn't be sent in on some occasions and then also but every now and then they went in would send in
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uh six gallons of milk but on the at night of april 9 april 18 um
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first of all the typewriter ribbon cassettes were delivered no batteries for the typewriter for the
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word processor but the negotiators for the first time without being asked
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sent in milk for the children so that was the evening of april 18.
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okay so we get to april 19th
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there's a different log this the log event log doesn't really have much on april 19th
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but there's a separate log for april 19th that i'm going to start referring
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to and basically it shows that special agents in charge jamar and
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schwein and another guy were in the forward tactical command post
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i don't know where that is but i'm going to guess it's the undercover house what you you know which is now destroyed it's not
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there anymore but it's the house across the street that the atf used was the undercover house and i think
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the fbi continued to use it as their forward operation center so that's where they were then there was
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a rear tactical command post where dick rogers was located his call
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number was hrt1 so i think we can presume that was dick rogers
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i don't know where the rtoc the rear tactical operating system was but i think a good
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guess is the barn in the back that was behind the building uh then um
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a special agent in charge bob wicks who had been handling the press briefings he
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remained at the command center which was over at the texas state technical college
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and but now on april 19th it's called osc operation support center so that's
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where he's located so i'm going to just mention a few things
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from the april 19th
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at 1 25 a.m a physician a pediatric burn specialist
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from the galveston burn clinic called and taught to an agent and offered his assistance if needed
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just out of the blue in in this log so i you know it's not hard to imagine that
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he was returning somebody's call but you know we don't know a lot of things
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as we know the assault started at uh 6 a.m the log only reports the audio from two
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bugs but there were actually more bugs there were a total of 11 bugs throughout the siege a lot of them got
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thrown out or destroyed during the siege we don't know how many bugs were operating during the
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during the assault on april 19th but in 1999 colonel rodney rawlings
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was talked to lee hancock with the dallas morning news and he told her that he was
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present there during the salt he was the head military liaison between the fbi
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and the army basically and he said he and the fbi agents were listening to the
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surveillance devices in real time the audio from the surveillance devices in real time
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and he said that uh they were using the audio from the bugs to direct the tanks where
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to go and he also told her that they could hear the children and the
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mothers inside the concrete vault at the base of the central tower in his
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words crying talking and praying okay so we can assume there are more bugs
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that they were listening to than what get recorded in the blog all right so here's what the lot just a
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few things from the log at 8 25 am uh sioc
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requested that a remote camera be placed on a tank boom to look inside rooms
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for subjects before the building is torn down that's what the love says you know there
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was a lot of things going on and i'm not going to recount everything but you know clive in his book he talks
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about how at what point he decided he wanted to get a bottle of water
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that he had left in his room and and the log reports that about 10 15
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a.m a man is seen through one of the front windows where the gas mats gone
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looking around for something in one of the rooms and then he picks up something solid
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and then leaves okay so i think they they saw clyde
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um but moving ahead here 11 55 a.m
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hrt1 that stick rogers advised uh the sac and the osc
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that would be bob rick's at the command center quote that food stuff's at base of tower
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gas occupants fled moments before
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and then um rick's at the osc says he advised hrt1
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to order the clearing of the area on the front area so they can exit quickly safely
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then of course the the sioc logged at 12 11 pm that the fire it says quote fire started
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at compound appears to have been started by then excuse me let me start over again
35:44
fire started at compound appears to have started by them having torched it that's a quote 12 13
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pm uh it was rtoc logs fire department assistance requested
35:58
12 13 pm rtoc records hrt1
36:07
radioing to osc operation you know over there command center
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they're torching the place at 12 20 p.m sioc law the interesting thing
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about this log is that it's very clear that sioc this command center in the uber building
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in washington dc they were listening to the bugs they were watching the video
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they were listening to all the communications between the agents there they were listening to all of that
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in real time when uh when uh they even knew when graham went out to signal that the
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telephone line had been cut by the tank and uh and they named him it they got graham outside trying to fix
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telephone line you know so the sio seeing you what was going on in real time
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so at 12 20 p.m sioc loss five people coming out people coming out
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in all directions 12 24 pm our toc logs
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try to determine where the children are that's command from hrt hrt1
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12 34 pm sioc logs fire trucks arrived and going right into
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compton
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12 35 pm rtoc logged hrt1 says get any fire units up now
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12 36 pm isioc logs five burned and a lot more out
37:47
front right side windows the white is the front side uh observed individuals lighting
37:53
fires people clearly seen lighting fires by fbi personnel and forward toc
37:58
seen with binoculars in in klein's book he talks about how the government tried to make
38:04
that argument in the um during the criminal trial and it was just proved to be totally
38:10
false but anyway they're logging that at 12 36 pm
38:16
12 41 pm our toc logs fire engines pulling up now
38:24
12 59 pm rtoc logs children may be in pit area by very fast
38:33
and then skipping ahead to 10 30 pm the log says atf assumes investigative
38:41
responsibility atf established crime scene perimeters
38:48
and soon investigative responsibility on the site
38:57
in any of the logs did they mention the delta force at all oh no of course not they're the ones
39:03
that planted the sound we can you know i i suggest we
39:08
there obviously we know what being logged is doesn't match with what other things
39:15
that we learned and various but um
39:20
let's move on to the memorial part and we can have discussion later
39:34
normally we try to have the reading of the names about the time the
39:42
fire started which from the records that we
39:48
had access to took place about nine after twelve so before we do anything else i think we
39:56
will go ahead and remember those that that died there at mount carmel
40:08
most of you are familiar those that have been coming from for
40:13
years are familiar with the names as we read them each year
40:20
i've presented them in different ways to try to make it interesting i've presented them
40:26
as by the countries they're from i've presented them alphabetical
40:33
different formats a lot of times we forget
40:41
as cathy mentioned in a in her talk
40:48
the horror of the ones that came out excuse me the horror of the ones that
40:54
died at mount carmel has been with us all this time
41:01
you know what most people don't remember or perhaps think less of
41:07
is all the ones that came out during the negotiations there was something like 35 or so people
41:15
that came out as a result of the negotiations
41:20
and we want to remember them too today and so
41:28
i'm going to begin with those who died on february 28th
41:34
we don't have a special memorial each year on february 28th but that's when it all started
41:40
with the shootout by the atf
41:46
those who died february 28th winston blake from england
41:54
he was 28 peter gent
41:59
age 24 from australia peter hibsman an american citizen
42:08
he was 28. perry jones who was 64 an american citizen
42:16
michael schroeder 29 he's the one that was actually shot later on in the afternoon
42:23
as he tried to get back into the to the property and was left laying in the creek bed
42:31
for several days before the body was recovered
42:36
and jaden wendell who was 34
42:42
an american citizen from hawaii there are also four batf agents that
42:50
died on february 28th conway le blue
42:56
34 todd mckeon 28 stephen willis 32
43:03
and robert or rob williams 26.
43:10
those that died on april 19th
43:17
nicole gent little 24 from australia she was the twin
43:23
sister of peter dalen jen age three
43:30
pages gent aged one and an aborted fetus from nicole
43:40
that was aborted during the fire aisha gayathas summers
43:47
was 17 an australian by of hungarian extraction
43:56
she was died in the fire startle summers age one
44:03
and her aborted baby that died during the fire as well
44:12
a big percentage of those that died in the fire were from england a lot of them of jamaican extraction
44:20
but all british subjects
44:25
we had ulrich bennett aged 35
44:32
sus inventor 31 out of diwali davies
44:38
age 30. unlike most of the others he was from nigeria not jamaica
44:46
yvette fagan who was livingston fagin's wife age 30
44:55
excuse me 32 doris fagan livingston fagan's mother
45:02
age 51 you had beverly elliot age 30
45:10
sandra hardiel 27 diana henry 28
45:17
pauline henry 24 phillip henry 22 stephen henry 26
45:26
vanessa henry 19 and the mother of these children mozilla
45:33
henry uh doesn't have a rage
45:39
correct here livingston malcolm 26 diane martin
45:47
41 no relation to sheila john mark mcbean 27
45:56
bernadette monbelli 31.
46:01
melissa morrison age six rosemary morrison 29
46:10
sonya murray 29 teresa nabrega 48
46:16
and clifford sellers 33
46:24
of all of those cliff sellers was the only
46:29
white subject from england uh all of the rest were black like i
46:34
said most of them from jamaica canadians who died april 19th
46:42
raymond friesen 76 he was an american citizen but was born
46:48
in canada and novella sinclair hipsman
46:54
36. he also had pablo cohen
47:00
who was originally from argentina but was discovered met by david in israel so
47:10
he was an israeli citizen and rebecca sapir who was a
47:15
samoan of new zealand nationality
47:23
you have catherine andrade age 24
47:30
argentinian background but an american citizen you
47:38
have a daughter chanelle andrade age one and you have her sister jennifer andrade
47:46
19. you have mary jean borst
48:04
49.
48:25
sherry doyle
48:46
hey excuse me lisa marie ferris
48:55
24. floyd haltman
49:00
61. sherry jewell 43
49:07
david m jones 38
49:12
rachel koresh 24 cyrus hal quresh
49:20
age 8. star hal kuret age 6 and bobby lane quresh
49:28
h2 jeffrey little 32
49:39
anita marie mart 18 douglas wayne martin 42
49:46
lisa marie mart 13 sheila renee martin 15
49:53
and wayne martin 20.
49:59
juliette santoyo age 30 crystal barrios
50:06
h3 isaiah taco barrios h4
50:14
joseph martinez age eight
50:22
abigail martinez 11 and audrey
50:28
martinez 13.
50:33
james riddle age 32 steve schneider 43
50:40
judy schneider 41 miner schneider h2
50:47
scott gugiero sonobe age 35. flora cedar
50:54
sonobe age 34 gregory summers age 28
51:04
lorraine sylvia aged 40 rachel silvia 12
51:11
hollywood sylvia h1 michelle jones thibodeaux page 18
51:21
serenity c jones age four little one jones age two and
51:28
chica jones age two they were twins
51:33
neil vega aged 38 margarita vega 47
51:42
mark wendell age 40.
51:53
i want to read the names of those that were survivors at this point which we don't always do
52:05
from australia you have graham craddock
52:12
clive doyle i'm an american citizen that i'm originally from australia
52:18
edna doyle my mother who has since died
52:24
and oliver guyathas british survivors were norman allison
52:33
rennis abram livingston fagin and his two children
52:39
nahara and i'm sorry but i forgot the name of the daughter
52:48
thank you victorine hollingsworth who was originally from guyana but
52:56
was a british citizen she has since died derek lovelock
53:05
natalie nabrega and marjorie thomas
53:11
canadian survivors gladys hartmann ruth utman riddle villarreal
53:20
and annetta richards u.s survivors conception of kuna
53:29
since deceased brad branch who's with us here today jamie castillo
53:38
deceased jamie for those who remember was one of the guys in prison
53:44
that died shortly after being released clyde doyle
53:54
i guess i got myself on both this u.s citizen uh
54:00
karen doyle paul fadder kalani fetter
54:09
misty ferguson tilly freeson who's since deceased
54:17
heather jones kathy jones kevin jones mark jones
54:25
and mary jones janet kendrick woodrow bob kendrick
54:34
margaret lawson james lauder who is deceased now janet mcbain
54:43
chrissy mab jake madd scott madd daniel martin
54:52
jamie martin who's since deceased kimberly martin sheila
55:01
trudy maya now deceased riddle
55:10
catherine schroeder brian schroeder
55:16
angelica sanovi craigie crystal senobi granny
55:25
joshua sylvia stan sylvia
55:30
david thibodeau joanne vega vanessa wendell landon wendell
55:39
patron wendell and tamara wendell
55:48
one other name i want to bring to you he was not around
55:55
at mount carmel at the time of the siege or
56:00
after the siege per se but he was a young guy that came down from new
56:07
bedford with floyd houghton and stan sylvia way back at the beginning of david's message
56:14
his name was victor baruto
56:20
he has since deceased as of january the second this year
56:33
the book of isaiah chapter 57 verses 1 and 2 says the righteous perishes and no man layeth
56:40
it to her and merciful men are taken away
56:47
none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come
56:53
he shall enter into peace they shall rest in their beds each one walking in his uprightness
57:04
from the book of psalms chapter 12 verse 1 and 7 help lord for the godly man ceaseth for
57:12
the faithful fail from among the children of men thou shalt keep them o lord thou shalt
57:18
preserve them from this generation forever
57:26
at this time we have with us connie gilda brett from kansas
57:33
she has a song that she's going to share with us and when she gets through we will
57:41
i'll announce what the next plans are so you know what's going on for the rest
57:47
of the day
58:06
um
58:19
okay um
58:32
uh just right behind here would be awesome yep either that or to the side it really
58:39
doesn't matter
58:57
i want to share very quickly a scripture that the song is really based on loosely
59:04
and it's uh psalm 84 5-7 blessed is the man whose strength is in
59:10
you whose heart is set on pilgrims the niv says whose heart
59:15
who have set their heart on pilgrimage as they pass through the valley of weeping
59:21
and there will be values of weeping and some of you have gone through incredible valleys of moving
59:28
they make it a place of the rain covers it with pools
59:34
they go from strength to stream each one appears before god in zion
59:42
there's pain and you can't afford to let it just be a monument that stops
59:49
it and i i appreciate people like my friend clive who have gone through the book like that
59:57
and are making it uh rather than just making it a monument making it a well
1:00:04
because there were some so many things that happened that can never we can never afford to happen again
1:00:12
and we just have to speak out and we have to as we go through that valley of weeping
1:00:18
not make it a monument but make it a well just dig the well
1:00:24
and let god fill it
1:00:30
there are days that take your breath away some days bring so much pain
1:00:40
you find you're in a valley life won't be the same again
1:00:49
some moments just
1:00:56
days tattoo your heart you can stop there as a monument
1:01:04
or find the strength to make a start
1:01:10
this is grief too deep to waste too painful not to tell
1:01:20
too great to build a monument
1:01:25
you've got to build so
1:01:34
when you're going through
1:01:40
you thought you'd never see and the pain comes to
1:01:47
you it changes all your dreams let god's mercy
1:01:56
lead you through it give you a story you can tell
1:02:15
don't feel
1:02:27
a well shows weary travelers in the valley filled with tears
1:02:36
that there is
1:02:49
the greatest purpose
1:03:10
a place of springs no longer
1:03:17
because you dare to dig
1:03:40
and the pain comes to of you changes
1:03:47
all your dreams let god's mercy lead
1:03:55
give you a story you can't do
1:04:23
the monument is lifeless proof of what men's hands can do
1:04:33
oh well's a living testament of how god's mercy
1:05:03
changes all your dreams let god's
1:05:12
give you a story
1:05:34
me
1:05:49
and after the meeting i brought copies of the lyrics if anyone would like it feel free did everybody
1:06:05
get to meet brad and kevin
1:06:10
kevin i didn't know they were coming until yesterday so
1:06:16
i'd like you two guys to come on up brad and kevin were
1:06:21
two of the guys that went through the trial in san antonio unfortunately they
1:06:30
uh were found guilty supposedly
1:06:38
so they they were some of the ones that got stuck in the prison system not
1:06:44
unlike uh bob and norman and i who walked away from san antonio
1:06:51
these guys spent some time couple years back we had paul here and uh we never did get to get jamie to
1:06:59
come for a memorial and he's no longer with us so
1:07:04
i just want to introduce you this is brad this is kevin wycliffe on the on the
1:07:10
right and uh i know i know brad has a burden on his
1:07:18
heart uh he'd really like to see the memorial
1:07:23
being held out of mount carmel there have been others that have expressed that concept to me
1:07:31
uh probably especially some of the people from austin who helped build the chapel out there
1:07:37
but uh i've also had quite a number that normally come
1:07:44
that don't want it out there and i'm always torn between the problem of who do you try to please
1:07:51
sort of thing please god well that's true but
1:07:57
you know when you got people threatening all if you have it out there we're not coming anymore
1:08:02
as opposed to if you don't have it out there we're not coming and you kind of get caught in the middle
1:08:08
um then please yourself
1:08:14
next year is the 20th anniversary what do you all think about having it
1:08:21
now five i'm here and i live at mount carmel i've
1:08:28
been made the caretaker the taxpayer
1:08:33
the everything out there and i'm telling you that you need to come out there and keep the memorial there from now on
1:08:41
i've been telling you that almost every year but nobody's listening but now you're getting people that are telling you
1:08:48
we need to put it out there we built a kitchen out there it's not finished we have water out
1:08:54
there now connie we do need a well
1:09:01
not just a well of information but a well of water again because the government destroyed
1:09:06
that and no one's going to do it for us unless we do it for ourselves do you understand that
1:09:12
and i believe we all need to get together because we're all a part of this tapestry that god
1:09:20
the holy spirit's weaving and we need to remember that we need to respect one another we need to respect one another's
1:09:26
opinions but we also need to respect god and god put us out there clive
1:09:33
i'm living there now i feel like y'all abandoned it i don't know why your mother's grave
1:09:40
needs attention is this just a vote for the 20th no this is forever no this vote right
1:09:45
today is this for next year only
1:10:10
where they were trespassed in 1993 pardon me where they were trespassed in
1:10:16
1993 that's where we should have the memorial amen yeah i agree and i'm saying there's
1:10:22
no welcome to come there it doesn't seem to be any argument that the church owns the property so the church
1:10:30
will decide you know where where and when things are doing we don't have any
1:10:36
immediate plans at this time will you leave the memorial fire of course cloud is going to be involved
1:10:44
if i'm still around amen god willing yeah jeff
1:10:53
were you wanting to say something before we break for lunch i think i would i would like to say one
1:11:00
thing kevin is a surviving police no i didn't make it on your list
1:11:07
we just want to make it known that yes we should
1:11:16
we just want to make known that we still believe all the beliefs that david koresh held and that we have more beliefs
1:11:24
we've the faith continues and uh and if anyone would like to get
1:11:31
in touch with us you can do that we're at www.7seals.com you can
1:11:36
you can read our message you can uh contact yourself tell me about it
1:11:42
i'm kind of hungry and that's why i'm kind of too much i know you're all waiting to get to the too much coffee but um
1:11:51
a few months ago we've come a long way we drove in from san antonio a few months ago
1:11:57
ron and i had gone to tyler and we discovered the fact that
1:12:05
bonnie's grave wasn't even marked there was no indication of where she was buried at
1:12:10
all and i went to the family bonnie's family
1:12:18
and found out that basically none of them except her was
1:12:24
interested in in putting a marker on bonnie's grave and so we put out a letter
1:12:30
asking if anybody was interested in contributing to donate toward that uh deal so
1:12:40
we went up and we paid for the marker and it was put in
1:12:45
what was it february 14. we've ron and i have been up there once
1:12:51
to make sure that you know they put it in and the plan today was there was such
1:12:59
uh quite a few people that wanted to go look up at it
1:13:07
bonnie's buried there david's very good and uh so we
1:13:13
we decided at three o'clock this afternoon we would take a contingent of people up
1:13:20
there and you know however many vehicles it takes for those who want to go we know it's
1:13:27
not in everybody's maybe in their plans or or whatever they may have other things
1:13:34
they want to do it's going to be a two two and a half hour trip each way so
1:13:39
take that into consideration but if you'd like to go see it you're welcome
1:13:47
um we will get to eat in just a second but i'm going to let jeff make an announcement
1:13:56
just for a couple more minutes okay
1:14:05
thank you guys thank you all for being here uh first thing i wanted to say that over
1:14:12
the years as a radio and television talk show host i've gotten to know many of the
1:14:19
branch civilians and let me tell you something folks they are good honest decent people and basically
1:14:28
everything you heard from those daily fbi news conferences back in february of
1:14:34
1993 was really just a bunch of
1:14:40
just garbage that's a friendly way of saying uh this whole thing was just
1:14:48
uh and i'm gonna echo what mike hansen just told me outside and
1:14:54
the uh my friend the late great terry liberty partner has been known to say that
1:15:03
i believe there should be indictments on the tape drivers on eight one this
1:15:10
day in 1993 and on the off of the people that gave
1:15:15
the orders to drive the drive tanks into mount carmel
1:15:21
facility buildings occupy occupied by american men women and children
1:15:27
i believe there should be indictments that's the only way you can really hold these people accountable but look for their deadly actions let me
1:15:35
try that well i know some people think it's a pipe drain
1:15:40
but i mean there should be indictments on the tank drivers that are still alive there should be
1:15:46
indictments on the people that gave the orders to drive those tanks into those buildings and uh
1:15:53
in one of the court proceedings clive one of the tank drivers actually stated
1:16:00
in court and this was an ap story actually stated in court court ring testimony
1:16:06
that he was given orders to drive tanks into buildings occupied by american men
1:16:11
women and children this was in court he said this by the
1:16:16
way i want to ask you do you you know a bobby grubbs
1:16:22
he was uh okay well i won't touch that uh so that's that's basically all i got
1:16:29
to say like i said i i i know many of the branches of idiots i love them they're great people
1:16:34
and unfortunately unless we start holding these people accountable government agents accountable for
1:16:41
their actions then i'm afraid there's probably going to be more wake ups down the road
1:16:47
so anyway we love you clive and i put in a vote to have it next memorial at mount carmel
1:17:01
most of what we've we heard today from catherine was
1:17:08
a lot of what we already knew in our case we experienced it
1:17:17
but the public don't know it the fact that this thing was planned
1:17:25
and carried out by not only the atf the fbi
1:17:34
you know the the different agencies that assisted them in the military
1:17:40
all of this stuff the fact that they were plotting a plan they
1:17:46
you know i like to give people the benefit of the doubt i might sound naive i might sound
1:17:53
too christian or whatever you want to call it uh and not wanting to accuse people of
1:18:01
having that kind of a motive or that kind of an attitude about going in and killing
1:18:08
men women and children i'd like to be that way i have been that way in the past
1:18:18
you know like i say i believe in the devil and where the people
1:18:25
outright sell themselves to the bill sell their soul to the devil and allow
1:18:31
the devil to direct them into and openly serve the devil
1:18:38
maybe one thing but there are lots of other people that allow the devil to influence them
1:18:46
you know in other words what i'm trying to say is a lot of these agents if you met him in
1:18:53
the street to probably come across as nice guys
1:18:58
you wouldn't think that they would deliberately go out there with the intent of doing what ended up
1:19:05
being done but
1:19:10
these kind of logs statements that are made and reports that have come down to us
1:19:16
over the years since then uh reveal that some of them had a pretty
1:19:22
bad attitude when going to waco for turkey shoot you know where mean green
1:19:29
killing machines statements like that did not reflect that they may have been
1:19:39
members of christian churches or whatever but it wouldn't melt in their mouth sort
1:19:44
of thing we we see that when things get going
1:19:53
you know there's a different mentality takes over the individuals involved
1:20:00
and so like i say these logs kind of back up maybe give us a little
1:20:06
more detail as to on a day-to-day basis what was happening but we were pretty aware that uh
1:20:14
they had intent you know they weren't about to to let too many of
1:20:21
us get out i don't believe and so
1:20:28
we can basically just pray for them because as david used to say i don't
1:20:36
care what these people are whether they're atf agents or fbi agents or or
1:20:43
whoever he said their souls to be saved they have the opportunity to be saved
1:20:51
but in the last 19 years i haven't seen a whole lot of remorse or a whole lot of uh
1:20:58
you know sorrow for what they did or
1:21:07
certainly you know jeff says these people ought to be indicted we tried that in a civil case
1:21:15
and for those of you that have been coming on a regular basis you know that the judge the federal judge that we had
1:21:22
in the case was the same judge we had in the in the criminal case in san antonio
1:21:30
and so we we named everybody from janet on reno down to you know the guy that swept the
1:21:37
sidewalk practically in the case and the judge let them all off
1:21:44
you could not you could not name any agent any officer in any law enforcement
1:21:51
agency in the case and he dismissed it all
1:21:58
so you might say we've tried that been there and done that and if you've got a corrupt system or
1:22:04
you've got a corrupt judge you don't get to square one unfortunately like there is no statute
1:22:11
of limitations on mass murder there can be a county united man
1:22:19
okay can i have one sure i got a long minute my clocks
1:22:27
real slow uh i'm randall from truth seekers in
1:22:33
austin and along with mike hansen and the whole crew come up here and
1:22:38
we try to do this every year and i i'm appealing to people to let's really remember the 20th
1:22:47
and i really believe if there would have been dogs or horses or anything else
1:22:54
other than human beings there we would have all kind of uprisings people marching in
1:23:00
the street and yet there were humans lovely people
1:23:06
those that remain i've met and uh this was all over a two hundred dollar
1:23:12
fine and yet we know that they practiced for almost a year at fort hood and
1:23:18
we know also that bill clinton a president to be toured the power plant
1:23:25
out there now wait a minute uh there was a hellfire missile missing
1:23:30
from fort hood that came back and ever since then there's been an escalation of charity
1:23:38
and i think we need to remember it next year and make it a national effort
1:23:46
and ask them and a byline of next year's memorial should be step forward
1:23:55
asking those people that did wrong to step forward and take their commands
1:24:01
thank you
1:24:10
you would think that if there were animals out there people from all different organizations would
1:24:15
be demonstrating and protesting about how they were treated well unfortunately there was some we had some
1:24:22
dogs they were the first ones that got shot even though they were no threat to the
1:24:28
agents they you know that was the plan you put the dogs down
1:24:33
before you get to the front door and uh you know everybody said well who shot
1:24:40
first and so forth out of the agent's own mouth their own
1:24:45
testimony was we heard shots at the front door and we figured they were taking care of the
1:24:51
dogs so we knew that was in the plan if all
1:24:56
the other agents in different areas thought that was what was being carried out then
1:25:02
you know that was part of the initial raid
1:25:10
planning according to their practice at fort hood
1:25:16
they were going to have us all laying on the floor in like two minutes flat all handcuffed all 130
1:25:23
or so of us see
1:25:30
a lot of that is is covering up the back the delta force was solely involved in
1:25:36
the beginning that mock-up was built it can't recall important brag this is common knowledge
1:25:41
of this amongst people in that in that area
1:25:47
i know the guy who taught me to get that mock-up was built at fort bragg that people can't recall the delta force
1:25:54
trained on it privately there was no atf there they trained on it as a team getting all
1:25:59
their tactics down they got it all down they chose one guy they disassembled that mock up they sent
1:26:04
it to community along with that guy and that he was seen overseas as an
1:26:09
advisor these these atf guys but that the army was involved long before
1:26:18
a lot of people are not aware of that you know i found out when i found out
1:26:23
about it because i knew the guy and i kept my mouth up for five
1:26:35
to years community he said one of his grandchildren
1:26:42
and he made the statement that he overheard a radio communication
1:26:48
they said we've got correction our sights we can extract them and we can take them out what do you want us to do
1:26:53
and they told them stand down stand down we've got another plan that was on the morning of the night
1:26:59
that they were in a tunnel somewhere in sight with the capacity to go in
1:27:04
wherever david was and take him and extract them or kill them also you know so that that wasn't at those
1:27:11
guys i mean they might have been trained they didn't have that time
1:27:16
okay for those of you that have been patient can smell the food or see
1:27:23
the food and like to get at it we're going to
1:27:29
let that be the next deal on the agenda eating together fellowship together
1:27:35
mingle and shake hands with each other a lot of these people here know each
1:27:41
other have been coming regular we appreciate that some of you and you so introduce
1:27:48
yourselves and uh eat well let's let's stand and we'll have a
1:27:55
blessing before we get started like i say if anybody's
1:28:00
interested in going to thailand uh see me or you know
1:28:08
we'll we'll take whatever number of vehicles it takes to get people up there if they need to go ready
1:28:15
let's power our heads father in heaven we thank thee for this
1:28:21
opportunity to fellowship together to meet together on this
1:28:27
solemn memorial this remembrance day of of a terrible tragedy a terrible event
1:28:36
we pray to father the deaths of these people will not have been in vain
1:28:41
that through the message going out
1:28:47
multitudes can be saved multitudes can be warned and
1:28:54
hopefully end up in thy kingdom we pray that you'll bless the hands that
1:29:00
have worked on preparing this food and supplying it i pray that you'll bless those who
1:29:06
participate in in this meal may they eat to die glory
1:29:12
and we always remember those that are less fortunate the name of those sons amen
1:29:21
sheila do you want to direct hearts to go down
1:29:27
please chew slowly so that the spoon
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