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Mt. Carmel Memorial, Pt 5(-): Matthew Wittmer, Helen Marie Taylor
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Jun 5, 2025
Matthew Wittmer discusses his work on the pictorial introduction to the massacre. Helen Marie Taylor, owner of the museum where the event was held, discusses her take on the historical and constitutional significance of the massacre. The John Denver song is omitted from this one to satisfy copyright requirements.
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i'm going to ask Matthew Whitmer if you would come up right now and also Miss
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Helen Marie Taylor if she could come up on the stage can you manage that without help
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oh yeah for those that were at the symposium
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yesterday uh Matthew Whitmer here who is a
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librarian out in California and who uh for those of you that visited Mount Carmel back uh several years ago when we
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had the visitor center uh there was a model that was of the building that had
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been made by Matthew and and uh loan to us which we had on display at that time
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um so we've known Matt and been associated with Matt for quite a few
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years in Matt's presentation and Katherine Wesinger's presentation
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yesterday at at Baylor uh the people that were there were
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introduced uh to some of the people that died in
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the fire pictures were put up of all the ones that we had pictures available of
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on the screen um but uh
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today Matthew is going to uh make a presentation to the Helen retailer
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uh to to the to the museum but to for the display upstairs of the 1993
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uh situation the Mount Carmel site and the events that went on out there so I'll turn it over to Matthew
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thank you Clyde yeah the uh Dick I think you were outside of the room when Kathy was up
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here i'd like to also thank you as she did for writing your book because it's what led me to meeting Clive back in the
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late 90s after reading um Dick's book I was able to contact Clive and let him
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know that I had made a memorial model of Mount Carmel and so that's how I was
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initially connected um after talking with his mother Edna uh many times I was
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able to go out to the property so um the event that Gordon uh Clive and Kathy
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spoke about yesterday was really something else it was um just sort of the tip of the iceberg of seeing
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information from people that have been studying and researching this event for the last two decades and um I want to
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thank Kathy for actually asking me to consider putting together a composite
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photo um for her presentation so that when she spoke about her work with the
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oral history project with the branch dividians that she's interviewed for her book
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um there would be a visual that would be representative of the entire community
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so we worked really hard to come up with um pull them out a composite picture
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that would have as many of the photos as we could find so today I'm happy to say
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that we can present a version of that that's on a canvas right here to the
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Helen Murray Taylor Museum that can go in the upstairs Mount Carmel room and it
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can be displayed with all the other information there so that's what this
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May I unveil it you may unveil it
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yeah so the organization of the
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photographs is in the same arrangement as the arrangement of the initial
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planting of the great myrtle trees on the Mount Carmel property and for
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photographs of people that we could not locate we've positioned a name stone
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rubbing of the namestones that are at Mount Carmel in substitution for their
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photograph and this chart I can also suggest can be updated so if you know of
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a photograph from anyone who is not included on this uh chart send it our
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way and we can update that online and the picture will also be on the website that I maintain
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um called stormbbound.org uh where I have a page dedicated to the visual history of Mount
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Carmel
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property but I can't tell you how pleased I am or how much we uh are
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looking forward to having this upstairs have all Have all of you seen the Devidian exhibit upstairs nobody nobody
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oh well I'll tell you a little about it we're going to open it up and allow
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people to do it all right that's wonderful well um about 19 years ago
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when the whole world was uh descending on the powers that be here in Waco that
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is the mayor Bob Shehi and the city council they decided that in order to
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deflect all that pressure on city hall it would be nice if they had some place that they could refer people to so they
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turned to the museum association of Waco and uh who have representatives uh of
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their various museums and groups uh and brought this subject up they thought
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that the Fort Fiser would be the logical place to have it but the man from Fort
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Fiser I quote him as saying "We sure as hell don't want it here." And so they
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wouldn't touch it well the woman who was representing us said "We are the history of Waco and we would like very much to
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have it." And so from that time on we were scheduled to find space for it and
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did and uh the Cooper Foundation was approached so that they would pay for the cases and uh the museum studies
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department at Baylor uh director and his students put it together and with the
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generous help of the uh Texas collection people who had lots of materials to
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choose from they uh they put together the exhibit largely what you will see
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this was the caveat from the city council and the mayor it couldn't have anything in it that was
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controversial can you imagine having an exhibit on the Vidians and not being
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controversial well to the extent that they could they did it tells the kind of
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history of the Devidians beginning with Mr kiff I think and then the Rhodens and
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then George Rhoden and and David How I mean Vernon Malad esh and it sort of
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lays it out but when you wonder why more is not said about certain aspects of it
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that's why well uh a year ago less than a year ago I got a call telling me that
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the museum association of Waco had decided to remove it from the Taylor Museum after 19 years and I said what in
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the world are you talking about I've already I invited uh Clive Doyle and uh
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and Sheena Martin to have the museum for the 20th anniversary and they can't be
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here without that exhibit so if it's yours you may have it back but you're not going to take it back until I have
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copied it so it's cost me over $30,000 to reproduce that and our uh William
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Bernie who is our longtime uh security maintenance and building man here has in
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fact now you know the good Lord's in his heaven right we all know that after I got over being shocked and then angry
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and uh determined the hand of God was up there
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guess what once they take it out and I've copied it I don't have the caveat
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that it can't be controversial so boys and girls it's going to have the story told and it's not going to have any
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caveat
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and if you haven't seen the museum you certainly we've had visitors from 39
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states and 14 foreign countries and they did not come to the Helen Marie Taylor Museum for life and history of Waco to
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see the Constitution exhibit or the Cotton Palace exhibit or some of the other things that we have that are
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interesting they came to see the Dividian exhibit and the whole world is
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still interested
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in but what was a shock to them when they got here to see the Dividian exhibit was to find that backto back
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with it was a great constitutional exhibit that had the Bill of Rights right back to back with it it pointed up
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all of your constitutional rights violations and so thanks to this wonderful
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professor Melton over here who we all give him a round of applause
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again professor Melton has lifted this to a
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new what do I say professor Milton it's
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um this this has done a great deal to lift the conversation the reflections
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and give it a kind of I don't like the word respectability but it it gives it a
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kind of um respectability because Baylor University and the religion department
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has sponsored it well it has set off in me now i appreciate that so much but I
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have to say I don't care that much about your religion i don't even care if I don't understand your religion what I
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care passionately about is e you have a right to religion you have a
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right and I know Mr reeves has said in one of the films that I've seen is that
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these people are different from us and they know more about the Bible and and
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they have a different uh cultural religious right uh so what I mean uh
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that's what America is all about amen and uh I'm very proud to claim kin to
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the James Madison and he spent his entire life uh preoccupied with trying
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to give all of us our freedom of conscience and freedom of religion and many people don't know but that that
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James Madison is a direct descendant of the man who gave us the
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first consolidated English language and the first English Bible translated from
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the original Hebrew and that's William Tinddale william Tinddale was burned at
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the stake burned at the stake young evaded Canidians in 1536 for the terrible crime of
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translating the Bible from the original Hebrew into his newly uh consolidated
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English language and thank heavens uh Shakespeare's nurse brought him up on
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the Tindale Bible so all of all of Shakespeare's plays are in Tinddale English and if we didn't attract the
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attention of the world to the English language through our English Bible we certainly got them through
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Shakespeare and I used to teach Shakespeare so that mattered to me too anyway William Tinddale's sister married
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a man named Roland Taylor and Roland Taylor had been at Cambridge and gotten a doctor of divinity degree I mean a
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doctor of laws degree and when he saw his brother-in-law burned at the stake in Brussels and going through all of
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that he went back to Cambridge and got a doctor of divinity degree well by this time Anne Bin Henry VIII was totally
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enamored of you know and she was saying "Henry Henry if you have all these Anglican churches why not an Anglican
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Bible?" And yes and yes if you say so and yes you know well she finally talked
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him into it but it was 8 months after they were burned for uh William Dendale
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but his brother-in-law when he came forward the next 20 years they were able to get the Anglican Bible in all these
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Anglican churches and in fact when old Henry gave the uh approval to have the
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Bible every English Bible had to be in the Anglican churches and every single Bible had to pay him a royalty when it
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was published so he was looking out after Henry well then comes Buddy Mary and
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it's very easy to get on Buddy Mary's side she's going to go back to the true church the Catholic Church she's going
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to bring back to the to God's true man the Pope and you're going to do away with all this catechism and things in
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the English language now and then uh Roland Taylor is burned at the stake he
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has nine children and he lived in Hadley and Mary made every man woman and child
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in the village come out to see their minister being burned at the stake and that included his wife uh and Margaret
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Tenddale and their nine children and he he wanted to give each child a fraternal
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blessing so he reached out on their heads but the little little boy Thomas
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the youngest one they had to put him on a horse so he could re reach out on the horse's neck for his father to reach him
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well he he tells his wife God bless her that God will provide and that he wants
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her to remarry a good man who will help her bring up those nine children and she
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does he steps in they have a stake and a big iron pot and they
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require him to step in that pot full of oil bind him at the waist all
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around the pot and after he has blessed his children and spoken to all of his
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towns people they light the and he begins to recite the prayer of the
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psalms in English and this so infuriates one of the jailers that he has a halbert
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and he hits him across the head here and the blood is coming down over his eyes and he looks at the man and says "Is
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this not enough he's willing to be burned boiled and still he is going to remain
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faithful to that that faith you know this is not
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new we've paid fearful prices for this and Mr melton Professor Melton we must
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not let this get lost in the shuffle it is another hand that's being dealt that
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comes right on down now that Thomas Taylor has a son James Taylor that we
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call him the first he comes to Caroline County Virginia in 1630 the place I own
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and he has uh he's married to two women my husband was descended from the eldest
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son of the first wife and I'm descended from the baby son of the second wife and so we have ended up with the estate that
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James Madison grew up on we have the little museum house if you ever come to Orange Virginia that is the ancestral
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home of both James Madison and Zachary Taylor most people don't know that they were second cousins that they had the
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same great grandparents but this business of eternal vigilance is the price of
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freedom is well taken it's well taken and all I can say is that you have been
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the most modern chapter but certainly the worst in the history of the United States and uh I've talked to David Gwyn
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at the uh law department at Baylor and I hope several people that you had
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speaking yesterday Professor Melton who've expressed an interest to coming back and possibly next year we might
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hope to do the same thing if the law department at Baylor could concentrate
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on the on the violations to your constitutional rights that's involved in all of this and have the law school
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behind it then the next day we can meet here again like we do it and
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good idea good idea very good idea
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but you run into some interesting little things you hadn't counted on when I talked to do to David Gwyn who is the
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constitutional lawyer in the law department he said to me "Did you know that I have been representing the four
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families of the four ATF agents?" And I said "No I didn't know that." But
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I know here in this room some years ago we had a two-day seminar on the study of
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the founding documents having to do with uh uh religion and and the Supreme Court
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and we had a a a justice of the Texas State Supreme Court a man named Rahul
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Gonzalez here and he spent a whole day bringing us today up to date on every
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every case that has ever reached the United States Supreme Court having to do with a religion so I thought he'd be
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great i'll call him i did and guess what
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his nephew was an ATF agent at the Devidian event and he is now in charge
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of the Dallas office so has the retired justice Raul Gonzalez anything to say no
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he does not but he may have written something i don't know but uh I've got a recording of everything he said here
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that day so we'll look that up and see how it might relate but um anyway can't
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thank you enough we certainly are planning to put this up just as soon as we can and I want to thank you so who
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did this who who's responsible for this plan yes yes you put this together oh
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thank you very very much and and we're going to have up in the room uh it's Clive's idea that we have a heading that
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says "Lest we forget." Yes lest we forget and we'll have And we've already ordered all the names Clive and I think
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Wendy was picking them up today uh we're a little late on everything i I was busy
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getting down here an hour late because I was getting the no parking signs taken up all around this building and I
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finally called up the city manager and I said "We've got a lot of people coming and if you've got those no parking signs
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out there it's going to be a problem." good lord's in heaven he said "We're down there within 15 minutes we'll be
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over there." And I said "You've either got to let me put sacks over them or you got to take them away but I don't want
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to get in jail but I'm supposed to be here greeting all the people." So anyway they took all the signs down now another
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thing that happened yesterday uh after lunch uh I saw Professor Melton and
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who's this darling girl that was just here where is she uh I said "What are you going to do with all those box lunches that are left over?" and and and
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he said "Well I don't know." And I said "How about giving us giving us those box lunches for the museum tomorrow?" He
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said "Well okay." And so he got this woman so the ice box in there is stacked
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full of pot of box lunches some of you do not have ham but we have a lot of ch
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of of turkey and not she has brought extra turkey today and ingredients for
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that now you don't tell Sheila that I told you but she doesn't even want me to
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serve anything that's got ham biscuits but all of you a lot of you are not allergic to ham biscuits or your
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religion does not preclude it so you just have to be nice but we don't serve
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our I know she doesn't even want it here to be served well I don't know maybe you'll have to go outside and eat your
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ham but we have plenty we have plenty of food we have turkey ham turkey ham all right all right so but you'll know it's
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not her fault that you've got ham out there that's my fault i'm a beggar you know now don't leave here without going
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to see your uh the constitutional exhibit we have some remarkable things in there the only known silk embroidered
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vest of George Washington's and all of the documents that are there now as copies were the original originally the
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original ratification of the United States Constitution by Virginia uh the letter from Washington the moment he
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heard that it had been uh uh ratified for Virginia he writes a letter in his desk buttons are just popping off he
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says "All of Alexandria is in a state of excitement and fireworks are going off and Mr wise has provided as magnificent
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a dinner as he could and invited the male members of the family to which they're going." And he said "And we
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crossed our ale to the melody of federal guns." And then he tells about uh that they
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will reconvenence on Monday be filming and dancing for the benefit of the ladies so they do not leave us out there
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and he tells about Patrick Henry who says he is going to give it every opposition within his power but if he
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does not succeed he will acquies with good grace now my lawyer here in town
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made a a hundred or more copies for you of the Washington letter and and another
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of the hoop and my exhibit here and they've gotten lost in the shuffle i have no idea who they are but if I can
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find them before the day is out I'll have you a copy of that what I do have for you is the interview of Pat
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Robertson of Mr mcnelte is he the one who did the Waco a
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new Waco what a new revelation revelation new revelation waco a new revelation and
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And so again good lords in heaven somebody delivered that here day before
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yesterday i saw it for the first time i've known Pat for years and uh there
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there again you see I am a history I guess you'd say hot pot or whatever I am
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but uh I was the national chairman for the draft Pat Robertson for president committee and I was serving as that
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until Ron Reagan sent me to the United Nations to be our representative there then you had to retire because you
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couldn't be politically involved in anything but I've known Pat for years i called up his secretary and I said "Did
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you put that did you put that tape out?" She said "No but Pat knows about it and you're very welcome to it if you can
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find out who who who put it out." Don't you know the man that did it is in is in
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Fort Worth and I called him up he only had about 20 copies and he stayed up all
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day yesterday and all night making 500 copies for me so every one of you are
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going to get a free copy of that when you leave here today as my present
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[Applause]
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can you come up just a second
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you need to tell us what it is it it's it's um
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come up and use the mic and use that mic
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i told her I was I was going to make her practice on it now it's just it's the
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YouTube not
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all right then i I had planned on it just being turned on Sheila speak into
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that mic when she gets through explaining and on the mic
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speak into the mic we can't hear you when Sheila gets through explaining what she's got playing I can't hear you
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either we're going to have the reading of the name so after the playing of this
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music then we will have the reading of the names and then you have another piece of music and then March so bear
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with us all right the situation was only to go from here
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to the music but this is something many years ago I saw this music that I
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thought was wonderful and I've been trying you can hear it once you were doing it okay i've been trying very hard
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to get it to us so Kimmy has been very sweet to help us she wanted to be very
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not take it off the internet so we very appreciate that of all she said she stayed up to 4:00 in the morning very
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sweet girl thank you very much [Applause]
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[Music]
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it has been our custom for the last 20 years to read the names of those that
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died uh we try to read them as close to the
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time that it happened uh as far as daytime and
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uh so I'm going to begin with the list of those that died
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on February 28th 1993 the Mount Carmel residents that
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died on April excuse me February 28th uh Winston
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Blake 28 years old from England peter Jen 24 from
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Australia peter Hipsman 28 an American
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perry Jones 64 an American michael Schroeder
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29 American and Jeene Wendell 34
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American also on February 28th were four ATF
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agents Conway Leblau Todd
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McKon Robert Williams and Steven
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Willis we've read the names of those that died on April 19th and years past in
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various formats sometimes we've done them by country sometimes we've done them
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alphabetically but when you go upstairs to to view the exhibit uh a little later
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on uh we were asked to put them together uh
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this year with the children under
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21 and then the adults so don't start wondering what's happened
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if the some of the children are not with their parents sometimes we've done them in families
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but this is the way it was done this year chanel Andrad
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one Jennifer Andrad 17
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sherry Doyle 18 dalon Gent Little
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Three pages Gent Little One vanessa
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Henry 19 she was from England
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the gent baby that was miscarried during the fire
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and who ultimately died was uh next and then we got Cyrus How 8
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years old star six and Bobby Lane Caresh
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two michelle Jones Tibido 18
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serenity Jones four chicka Jones and Little One Jones
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were twins they were both two years old lisa
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Martin 13 sheila Martin
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15 anita Martin 18 and Wayne Martin 20 that's Sheila
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Martin's son not her husband crystal burials
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three isaiah barriers
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four joseph Martinez 8 abigail Martinez
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11 audrey Martinez 13 melissa
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Morrison six minina Schneider
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2 aisha Gayas Summers 17 from
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[Music] Australia gayus baby that was
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miscarried during fire and startle summers one
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rachel Sylvia 12 years old hollywood Sylvia one year
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old that's all of the children under 21 the adults that died on April 19th
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are Katherine Andradi 24 she was the mother of
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Chanel george Bennett 35 British subject
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susan Benton 31 the British subject mary Jean Borst
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49 beverly Elliot 30 British subject i
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bet Fagan 32 British subject she was the
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wife of Livingston Fagan
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doris Fagan 51 was Livingston's mother lisa Marie Ferris
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24 zilla Henry 55 British
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subject she is the mother of the following children diana Henry
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28 steven Henry 26 paula Henry
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24 and Philip Henry 22 we also had the youngest girl listed
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with the children because she was under 21 no
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sinclair 36 Canadian floyd
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Halman 61 sherry Juel
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43 rachel Al Caresh 24
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jeffrey Little 32 nicole Jent Little
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24 from Australia nicole was the twin sister of Peter Jent that was shot on
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the water
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tower livingston Malcolm 26 British subject diana Martin 41 British subject
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wayne Martin 42 Shield's husband juliet Santoo
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30 Ailia's daughter john Mark McBain 27 British
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subject allison Bernardet Montali 31 British
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subject rosemary Morrison 29 British subject
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sonia Murray 29 a British subject teresa Nrea 48 a British
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subject james Riddle 32 rebecca
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Sappa 24 from New Zealand Sister of Grace here
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judy Schneider 41 steve Schneider
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43 clifford Cellers 33 scott Kajiro
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Senobi 35 and Flora Senobi
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34 were the
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parents of Crystal and her sister that's with us
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[Music]
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today gregory Summers 28 lorraine Sylvia
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40 neil Vega 38 margarita Vega
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47 and Mark Wendle 40
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as I mentioned ear as I mentioned earlier we have a number of
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survivors here with us today i'd like all the survivors to stand if you will
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so that people kind of get a glimpse of who you are and later on I suggest that
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you mingle and you know make yourself known to each one we're going to open up
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the uh pulpit here for any of the survivors that want to have something to
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say uh that'll be this afternoon after the
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lunch i think there was one that didn't stand
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up
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okay okay didn't want to leave anybody out usually when I read the names or
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reading the names of the those that died or the ones that have survived u
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somebody always reminds me I forgot somebody so hopefully I didn't leave anybody out
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today pam Zorn has a song correct that you want to play we're going to have
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that song at this point and u then we will take break for lunch sheila has
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prepared food uh as Miss Taylor said she's got some lunches left over from
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Baylor yesterday uh I'm sure there's some other people that have donated some food so we thank you all for the the
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effort you've put into feeding this crowd
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i was a little worried the other day that Sheila might not have enough for everybody because somebody was saying there was going to be 200 people here i
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haven't counted you all but when you go upstairs to the
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exhibit there's a book you need to sign is it upstairs or downstairs upstairs in the room please write in that book and
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if the children are doing it please ask them to write and not just make you know scribbles in it it's a very interesting
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book uh George uh I mean David's grandmother has written in Mr case
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written in it number of people that live at written in that book and it's a very
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very interesting I invariably get home after memorial
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services after meeting all kinds of new people and old people that we've known
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for years and find out I didn't get your name and address or if I did somebody
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wrote it on a piece of paper and got lost excuse When you come in to the main uh door
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down here there is a book there that you'd write your name address telephone number so that's where we want you to be
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sure you put that down so we can contact you but the one upstairs in the living room is simply what you think of it what
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you think of the museum your what how you feel about it but the one down here is the information of how we can be sure
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who is here today and how we get in touch i I sent out notices through the
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mail um everybody says "Why don't you do email?" I don't like email i don't like
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texting uh I send out snail mail because I collect snails but
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uh I sent out about 70 dr melton provided the colorful brochure for the
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Baylor Symposium we sent all the letter and and all out together for those of
38:06
you that got that mailing there was also a memorial uh tract you might say that
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Livingston Fagan sent that he wanted uh everybody to get
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u so if you didn't get one if you didn't get an invitation today it's probably
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because we don't have your address and there's some extra ones out in our little has
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brochures some extra did you bring some
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I followed into his car one night everything he had that night anyway Miss
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Taylor is a stalker i said you were a stalker
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behind my back
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are you ready can I say something real quick so you got to come up here and say into this song is 19 years old
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and about I want to tell you why I'm going
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to say something is about the children and that's my
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heart i've been criticized a little bit i understand that suspected table just the children
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at that point in time I believe the children were really the only true victims um I heard
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propaganda I thought the adults had a choice not good choices perhaps if they
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had a choice the children no choice and that is why there is no excuse no excuse
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that it was handing the way it was even if the adults
39:52
So I just want you to understand that when you hear this also um I wrote
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something one time and I want to give you a really brief thing about this that here in this
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city in the shadow of so many churches where
40:09
love where has the love been for people that we don't understand disagree with
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those of us who are Christians especally Where was the
40:42
right Then
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bring it up here play it through the
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microphone may not pick it up yeah we can't hardly hear from
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play through the mic everybody get a chance
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could you tell us what
41:24
could you tell us could you guide us on what we should be doing yeah we recorded everything but I mean
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this should do it now they're going to do it right
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now we want to ask
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You got to plug in it doesn't come through here at all we don't have anything to do with it you just got to
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get electricity yeah i need power down here
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y is responsible for that earlier okay just having projection on the television
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put the microphone up to that speaker